External Circlips Quality

[WindyParticipant @windy30762]

My flash steam engine uses an external circlip with a thrust washer to keep the connecting rod on the big end of the crankshaft and has been very good.

My supply of circlips are getting low so I bought some from a bearing supplier on the Internet and the spring on them were not as good as the previous ones so they got binned.

I then bought 100 of them from the reputable firm I got my original ones from many years ago but found these had changed and left a lot to be desired.

Some were brittle and broke others were not springy and took a set even though I opened them just to go over the shaft.

With so much of variable quality on the market who is the supplier or manufacturer of properly heat treat circlips?

A simple item that does not cost much but if not right would destroy my engine.

Paul

[WindyParticipant @windy30762]

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Used to be "Anderton Springs" Paul, 100% QC Taken over by I think "Ellisons"

 

Regards Ian.

Edited By Circlip on 15/07/2014 11:21:43

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

A useful reference, thanks Ian.

I just checked google and cannot find a website for Ellisons circlips … but I did find this, which probably explains.

MichaelG.

[Mark CParticipant @markc]

You can't buy Anderton or Ellison anymore – they are all combined in Cirteq. I don't think you would be able to buy direct either – you would have to buy through a distributor (RS used to take their products but I can't tell you if that is still the case).

With regard heat treatment, the Ellison product used to be treated in oil which gives a better spring quality but everything is going over to salt quench (I don't think there will be much if any oil quench anymore) austemper which gives a less good spring but a more consistent product with less risk of cocking the treating up.

There are a number of methods involved in producing rings, depending on the size. What size rings are you talking about?

Mark

PS, Ian, it was never Anderton Springs, they still exist and make lots of wire spring and pressed sheet s[prings located in Oxenhope, West Yorkshire (used to have a manufacturing site in Howarth adjacent to the KWVR line at the bottom of the Worth valley! It was Anderton Circlips Ltd if I remember correctly

Edited By Mark C on 15/07/2014 11:46:45

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 15/07/2014 11:32:56:

.. but I did find this …

.

… and yes, they do small orders.

MichaelG.

[Mark CParticipant @markc]

Michael, Beneri are ok and you might also find Seeger Orbis and Benzing. Seeger are the original patent holders and there used to be a book by them giving the design information for both rings and applications but you might struggle to get a copy.

I would still like to know the ring size in question as I can probably give you an indication of it's origin if I know how it was made!

Mark

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Mark,

Sorry, wasn't trying to tread on your toes.

… Just thought I had located a supplier of Cirteq.

MichaelG.

[Mark CParticipant @markc]

Michael, you misinterpret me, I need to be told to do something rude before I take the hump!

I think you probably have found a distributor but you could end up with anything unless you happen to know the exact manufacturer. Even then, you might get imported – you need to know how to identify the manufacturer from the finished ring or at least tell how it was made. Not all that easy unless you have very detailed knowledge of the process involved.

Mark

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

 

PS, Ian, it was never Anderton Springs, they still exist and make lots of wire spring and pressed sheet s[prings located in Oxenhope, West Yorkshire (used to have a manufacturing site in Howarth adjacent to the KWVR line at the bottom of the Worth valley! It was Anderton Circlips Ltd if I remember correctly

Edited By Mark C on 15/07/2014 11:46:45

 

Anderton Springs was originated by a guy called "Willie Anderton" in the dim and distant and managed to con Noel Kitchen into buying a share in the company cos, he, (Willie) had found a "New" way to harden and temper Steel WITHOUT using heat treatment. This was pre WW2 and NHK was accountancy based as opposed to "Engineering" and found that machinery seemed to mysteriously dissapear from the shop floor. This seemed to co-inside with Willies pockets being empty and his desire for a pint or two at frequent intervals. Willie was "Bought out" and NHK became the owner of an engineering firm that DIDN'T have a cold treatment process. One of the products Andertons made to help the war "Effort" was the clips that converted single ammunition rounds into "Belts". Peter Ellison was an employee of A/S and decided he wanted to start up in the same trade and to give him a lift up, he was loaned tooling and machinery and given a range of clips to market under his own banner. Sadly, Peter was a very naughty boy and all tools and machinery was repossesed. He eventually had a manufacturing plant at Harden.

Andertons in conjunction with Dee Kay Engineering (Toolmakers) amalgamated and had three factories in Bingley, The Gas works, Clyde Street and DK. At the time I left, they were amalgamating all three sites and moving into Englands Mill. Both Salt bath quench AND oil bath quench were carried out Together with High temp Salt bath, Lead and Gas furnace hardening. Could explain the American (Tru-Arc) and the later ministrations but me fingers are getting tired.

 

Regards Ian.

 

PS. Just checked and my Apprentice (Propper slave type) indentures clearly state Anderton Springs

 

PPS. My forum Name???????

Edited By Circlip on 15/07/2014 13:24:22

[Mark CParticipant @markc]

Ian,

You would not happen to have been known (perhaps not directly face to face) as the "big banana"?

Mark

[Mark CParticipant @markc]

Ian,

My mistake (memory seems to let me down more and more) it was Airedale Springs I was thinking of! Located in Howarth and Oxenhope – I used to live overlooking the Ebor Lane site in Howarth so you would think I would remember….

I suspect – reading your last message again – that you will not know the meaning of the cryptic banana reference but lets see! I expect it was after your time.

Mark

Ps. You will find that the heat treatment has gone away from oil quench. This move was driven primarily by the Germans (Seeger) and the last place I know who used lead (lead patent) to treat wire was KTS Wire in Morley (also changed hands in the last few years) but they have got rid of their lead baths I believe. It is getting very hard to find people with this soert of epertise and I struggled to find anyone who could help with an autempering project a while back. Everyone has retired and gone subby to their respective company – they don't want or need the extra cash!

Edited By Mark C on 15/07/2014 15:28:25

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Cyril Circlip (Andertons Logo) and I parted company in 1968, so no, it doesn't ring a bell. Started in the QC dept but tranferred to toolroom, "Promoted" to D/O. Excellent grounding in presswork.

 

Regards Ian

Sorry for diversion Paul.

Edited By Circlip on 15/07/2014 17:52:22

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

The lengths I go to to keep you folks happy!

What other website would bring you Cyril Circlip in glorious technimonochrome in under 20 minutes?

Neil

[WindyParticipant @windy30762]

Thank you for the information I have been in touch with Cirteq and the nearest distributor is only a short walk away.

This distributor is where I got the last lot that were iffy now did they supply me with Cirteq or was it another make?

I suspect they aren't Cirteq as looking at the cataloque the size I require 1400-9mm had the lugs with a half hole the ones received had a full hole on the lugs.

The good ones they sold me many years ago had the half holes on the lug.

Will see what they say tomorrow.

Paul

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Paul,

What does half a hole look like?

Neil

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

If there was only half a hole in each of the lugs they weren't 1400's. If Neil has a full Anderton catalogue they should be in there. The half holes are in the adjacent parallel inside faces of the lugs. Have searched for my own catalogue a while ago, Black cover with white and bright yellow pages.

 

Regards Ian.

 

Fill yer boots.:- http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=circlips+dimensions&qpvt=circlips+dimensions&FORM=IGRE

Edited By Circlip on 15/07/2014 21:59:03

[Mark CParticipant @markc]

Ian, 1400 is the American external which should be an imperial size I believe? The metric equiv. is the din471 and the 471-9 (for 9 mm shaft) would most probably have the "half holes" as described. After that the 471-10 would be the first size with fully formed lug holes. The 1400-37 would be the most likely candidate for the 9 mm shaft (it would be the 3/8" size in imperial) but that would be .025" thick (.065 mm) as opposed to the din spec 9 mm ring which would be thicker at 0.8 mm. I seem to recall that the American spec was always thinner than the European spec? Either way, the "normal" mode of failure is for the shaft groove to fail so it makes little difference I suppose.

Mark

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Despite the advice in the workshop manual to replace the gudgeon pin circlips, I, not having any to hand and anxious to get the bike back on the road, reused them. This was an expensive mistake. Some weeks later a ticking noise started to come from the engine, I ignored this for a while as performance still seemed OK however the trident was an engine prone to rocker box oil leaks so a top end strip was a fairly regular task. With the head off a deep pit was noticed in the cylinder liner. With the barrels off I found the end of the gudgeon pin circlip had broken off and had dug a hole in the liner. So a component worth pennies had done many pounds worth of damage. An expensive lesson and maybe the guys at Triumph did know what they are talking about. For the last 35 years I have not reused a circlip in a critical application. I note that wire circlips are often used for gudgeon pins rather than the pressed type with ears.

Mike

[Mark CParticipant @markc]

Mike, Most of the time a circlip describes a curved, tapered beam ring which will deform in a circular fashion. What you describe is a round wire section snap ring. These do not deform in a uniform manner and due to the constant section the beam of the ring (the mid-point of the ring) has the highest stress concentration resulting in the ring deforming in a sort of elliptical shape. If you are not very careful with these, they will readily take a set and then you are stuffed! They are also often made from a "hard drawn" material which is not heat treated as such.

Mark

Thinking about it, when I was trained, we were taught to fit rings in pistons with the gap at the top, the idea being to try and prevent the wings of the ring from being loosened due to the acceleration of the piston down the bore – I never did do the calculation to see if it could happen/was true? but I have always followed that advice!

Edited By Mark C on 15/07/2014 23:43:53

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Hi Mark,

I was the ear with the hole for the circlip pliers that broke off and did the damage, perhaps soft end caps are the safest option to retain a gudgeon pin.

Mike

[WindyParticipant @windy30762]

Called at Brammer to enquire about the cirteq products and await the order.

Fortunately he found two circlips in an assortment box.

For something so simple what a change in quality on visual inspection compared to the previous iffy ones.

Back to the workshop to try to sort the aerodynamics of the hydro?

Paul

[Mark CParticipant @markc]

Paul, did you measure the thickness of the old clip and the new clip?

Mark

[WindyParticipant @windy30762]

The iffy clips had a difference in the way they were stamped out and 0.001" in thickness to the good circlips also the finish looked slightly different.

A while ago a box of assorted circlips were bought from screwfix (Chinese or Indian?) and compared to box of Anderton clips they were 0.013" thinner in the size I use.

I am very cautious with some of this imported stuff a few years ago while helping a friend time the valve gear on a Triumph bike engine it would not run right.

The running problem was caused by some new carbon brushes in the magneto that were of Indian origin and so soft they caused tracking then quality brushes fitted cured the running problem.

When buying on the Internet be very cautious especially with large amounts of money as just found the friend was taken for a few £1000 by a bike seller at the other end of the country.

Police and fraud been informed but little they can do.

Paul

[Trevor PicklesParticipant @trevorpickles44088]

Hello, I found this discussion of circlips while trying to find info regarding Anderton Springs. I worked as a trainee metallurgist under Bryan Waterhouse at the Bingley facility from '63 to 66 before emigrating to Oz. I know this has nothing to do with the discussion but – Ian, would I know you?

trev

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