Ethernet question

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Problem with new cable run to barn

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

I had a sparks come in and run a 50amp armoured cable to my barn on the overhead wire and run me a cat6 cable at the same time (age and ladders don't mix)

For some reason he used an end of roll so has an additional join in it. Total distance from house router to new subrouter point about 40-45 paces of cable.

I can't pick up a LAN signal from the installation with the new subrouter although it will pick up when plugged into my hobby-shed 35 pace extension: i.e suspected cable fault.

I own one of those cheapo ethernet/phone wire checkers that runs through a series of led lights and identified and resolved one termination error and now get all 8 leds lighting in sequence but still no LAN signal on the router.

I'm wondering if that type of tester just tests sets of pairs whereby it's possible to have a short across wires that still 'tests ok'?? Or whether it's just the cheapo subrouter not picking up on that length of run – or any other ideas??

I've checked and tested each patch lead and swapped them around with everything else to make sure they all work consistently and the number of reboots is making my finger hurt.

pgk

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Do you need a crossover cable if you are router to router. ie two devices of the same "type"
BobH

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Speedy Builder5 on 06/10/2018 14:44:33:

Do you need a crossover cable if you are router to router. ie two devices of the same "type"
BobH

I understood most devices now auto-sense on that. This subrouter works when plugged directly into the original router via a patchlead and has a power joiner so second section then powers router via the ethernet lead. There shouldn't be any cross-overs there or if there are then they should work with a longer lead in between.

Keep the thoughts coming.

pgk

[Mark DickinsonParticipant @markdickinson21936]

When you say the sparky joined the cable, do you know how?

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Mark Dickinson on 06/10/2018 16:31:41:

When you say the sparky joined the cable, do you know how?

An appropriate junction box

pgk

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Check the loop resistance, that joiner may be HR.

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

While CAT6 junction boxes are easily available, best practice frowns upon joins, especially in CAT6 Gigabit links.

Your tester only tests continuity not attenuation.

I suspect that too much signal attenuation may well be the reason because, as the specification says, the maximum connection length is 90m of solid core cable with an additional 5m of flexible patch lead at each end. Pairs should not be untwisted and no more than 12.7mm (1/2&quot taken out of the overall cover to make a connection. If this has not been complied with, and some of the connection boxes I have seen will not allow it to be, or alternately excessive bends are present, then the signal may be attenuated too much to work.

If you are trying to make a 10Gb connection the maximum cable length of 55m may have already been exceeded.

I have even seen long cable runs done in flexible cable that did not work because they could not be punched down in the connectors properly.

I would be asking your sparks why he made the join and try to ask him to re do it in one length as it is not to CAT6 specification.

Assuming all of the above is complied with check terminations at each end as if the ground potential at the barn end is different to that at the home end (the largest I have seen is 70V!) a current can flow along the CAT6 cable further degrading the link.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Concurring with Nicks comments immediately above mine, but adding to make sure your sparky uses an exterior grade Cat6 cable.

Bill

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

I would suggest using a switch rather than a router.

Regards

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Wow..Thanks. A lot to take in. Since i only get 2Mb/s out here in the sticks it's not speed that i need. I was hoping not to attack the junction box 'cos that's up a ladder (albeit not too high) will look and redo all the pins myself.

I had originally intended sparky just to run the cable and I'd do the terminations but we had a bit of a crossed wire over some of the job. I also think he guesstimated the length and got the end of a reel somewhere and found it wasn't long enough…

I'll have another pratt about tomorrow.

The job is to plug into one of the wireless adsl router LAN ports and get another wireless link down to the barn area 'cos my new car wants an internet connection for updates (since we're in a poor cellphone area) otherwise when updates are due I'll have to park it by my hobby-shed but that means going via the lawns and this is wales – lawns become mud easily.

pgk

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Are the earths the same, years ago we had a modem problem caused by earth potential differences between the computer and the modem. The computer installations were all whiz bang and up to date, but the ring main was old and outdated. There was a 6 or 9 volt difference between the two earthing systems ! It reduced the RS 232 from 18 volts down to 9 volts and He no workey!!

[JonParticipant @jon]

Massive attenuation there need every gain you can.
Been 14 years since done CAT 6E here to 4 rooms, i dont use wifi and never will, its only for the telly and Androids etc.

If that CAT 6 wont have it i would be tempted for wifi and a repeater.

[Colin HeseltineParticipant @colinheseltine48622]

Is the router in the barn getting any power. I don't fully follow your description. Does the second router use Power over Ethernet (PoE). You mention a 'power joiner' where is this located and how does it get its power. What model is the router at each end.

As you have power in the barn another option would be to use Ethernet over Power connectors. These devices are quite cheap nowadays. e.g. TP-LInk Powerline devices can be obtained for around £25 to £35 for a pair. Plug one in power socket at each end of run and then connect one end to main router and second device in at opposite end.

I have in the past seen some very interesting Cat5 connections made by electricians, e.g. six runs of cable all terminated together in chocolate block connectors, giving a star effect, cables have been lengthened using a proper joiner but the cables have not been matched up correctly, multiple data outlets connected to one cable, cable run parallel to the mains with no shielding for up to 50 metres. It pays to double check what has been done.

Also as NIck says above, has the correct cable been used. Many people (including a lot of IT guys) do not realise that you use different Cat5/Cat6 data plugs depending on whether you are using solid cored cable or the flexible multicored cable (ie. cable used for flexible patch leads).

Colin

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Possibly the cable is damaged, but most likely it's the connections. I'd start by replacing the RJ plugs because that's easy to do. However that junction box is my chief suspect. Your sparky may know all about connecting signal cables or he might not. Did he use the right punch tool for the terminals? Even if he's an expert the junction box is up a ladder making a mistake more likely.

The best tool for testing CAT is a TDR. Not cheap – when I bought one (Hewlett Packard?) it cost my employer about £4000 if memory serves. (Don't ask me how to drive a TDR, my job was authorising the purchase, not having fun using it!)

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 06/10/2018 22:16:12

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

It is pukka cat6 external cable.

I needed a 32Amp supply to the barn to mount a charger for my new car and took the opportunity to add new 13 amp sockets and an external light switch to the barn lights – hence the need for a sparks to join up with the extisting supplies coming into the house. The utility room where all the circuit breakers are doesnt pick up the wifi signal well enough to simply use powerline devices (unless its possble to daisy chain the things via the downstairs ring main into that room then pick up again and transfer to the barn.. a mesh system??).

I did try adding a simple wifi repeater from the point in the house closest to where the car is parked with a good indoor signal but the range wasn't quite there – hence the cable. I chose to go via sockets rather than plugs directly on the cable from my past poor experience at putting plugs on.

Router in barn that i was using was the one that can act as a wifi repeater or as a wifi with ethernet input. It didn't give the range as the first hence repurposing it. It comes with a system to power it via the last stage patch lead. Tomorroow I'll try setting things up with a more conventional independantly powered router and avoid that last extra patch lead. (but as stated it works fine on my known to be good hobby shed cable run).

Gut instinct is cable fault – either attentuation as suggested or just the connections good enough for continuity but not signal. (which I guess is attenuation)

Earths are all back in the house.

pgk

[Colin HeseltineParticipant @colinheseltine48622]

As far as I am aware, the powerline devices only need to be on the same phase, I don't think that being on a different ring main will make any difference. So you could plug one Powerline device in next to your central router and patch it straight into your router and put the second one in your barn.

I have in the past had Cat5 cables running at over 120metres in length. I should state these were not installed by me I was checking other peoples work. They worked, but would not provide PoE over that distance, there was just too much power drop.

I have had cables fail on attenuation when tested and sometimes just a simple re punch down can correct the situation, and in some cases ensuring that the untwisted bit of the cable is kept as short as possible on all pairs. On very odd occasions the data outlet itself was the problem and swapping it out cured the problem.

If the cable has been badly kinked this can also cause issues. In 28 years of installing Cat5 cable I have only once had a faulty drum of cable. I had run 30 plus cables round an office, using 3 drums of cable and found on testing that every third cable failed testing on one pair. Luckily the customer was understanding, was not using the faulty pair and did not intend staying in the offices for longer than 3 months so was happy for me to leave it as was rather than rip it all out.

Colin

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

As per Colin, although our house has a 3 phase supply, by selecting the same phase between the house and the workshop, I can get WIFI in the workshop for internet radio (in France) by using a power line network extender. As it happens, the router is on a different phase, but that doesn't seem to matter as the master / slave power line devices are on the same phase. (The workshop is single phase),
BobH

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Thank you all gentlemen. I remembered owning a pair of powerline thingies to wireless router in barn and car now has it's 'net connection.

(and I own several metres of unused ethernet cable that it'd be a nightmare to bother taking down but learned a valuable lesson)

pgk

[Colin HeseltineParticipant @colinheseltine48622]

pgk,

I take you have now used the Powerine devices and all is ok.

Have fun,

Colin

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