elevating barrow

[larry PhelanParticipant @larryphelan54019]

Hi Everyone,

Looking through my back numbers,I came across an article by Dave Fenner describing an elevating barrow,which he made [issue no 133,Dec 2007 ]. He mentioned that the section he used,2×11/2" channel was becoming difficult to obtain,and so it is !

I would like to build one of these barrows since my back is no longer what it once was [they call "old age" ] What I want to know is,could I use something like 3×3 box and split it up the center to produce 3×1/2" channel,and if so,how do I go about cutting it?

I have a few ideas [dont laught ]

1 A slitting saw mounted in my mill,cutting as far as I can,using the table movement,then repositioning the section to do another cut.

2 A cutting disc,in place of the slitting saw.

3 This one is more scary,,A cutting disc mounted in my bench saw !

4 I do have a circular saw blade for cutting steel,but I think my saw might be a bit too fast for it.

Any ideas,,other than getting my head seen to ?

[larry PhelanParticipant @larryphelan54019]

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Splitting tube into channel can be a bit fraught due to locked in stresses. Never know if its going to close up or open out. Did a short bit once by going down the weld seam with a thin cutting disk in an angle grinder. Figured that if it did close the side of the disk would cut well enough to stop a jam up. Naturally arranged a rigid guide and full guards so nothing could escape if the disk did go bang! Working blind and by ear.

Uber faff. Tightwad Clive spending far too much time using up "the handy bit in stock" to save thruppence three farthin'.

Best to buy nearest size channel and operate on the free legs. If milling fill the gap with lump of wood improved wood offcut strips.

I'm impressed by the cut quality possible with those thin disks on a properly guided angle grinder.

Clive.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

I did use an angle grinder to do more or less what you want. It worked very well indeed. BUT I was on tenterhooks all the time and quite how I got away with it, I shall never know. Very dangerous operation, but I was desperate at the time and it was the only way out. I wouldn't dream of doing it again.

Andrew.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Convert to metric or weld 2 bits of angle iron?

[larry PhelanParticipant @larryphelan54019]

What do you mean convert to metric ? the box tube will be in metric size anyway

I did consider using angle,it,s just a bit messy and I thought a disc on the mill might be a better idea since I could control the speed better. Using channel would be a lot heavier and even 3×1/2 or76x40 is not easy to get here. I think 100×50 was the nearest I could find.Something that size would be heavy enough to move a tank !

PS Would not even think about trying that with a hand held angle grinder !! life is too short for that,and I dont have enough of that left to take chances !!

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Done the welding angle iron into channel thing. Can be effective but a bit of an art getting the backside flat and the sides perpendicular. Managed well enough for my job using spacers, clamps, care and a touch of the BFH treatment but not the way I'd choose in retrospect. Part of a larger weldment so was able to compensate for the errors during assembly of the full structure.

You can get metal cutting blades for the small 85 mm plunge cut saws. About £10 I think. If you have, or can blag one, one thats probably the safest way as the guarding is comprehensive. Such saws are probably too slow to run a 75 mm abrasive disk as used on air die grinders et al tho'.

Not too difficult to fake up a similar shoe for a normal angle grinder but you need to be very organised about having somewhere to put down as the disk needs to project well through to give a near vertical cut. The automatic retraction of a plunge saw is a lot safer! Theoretically a shallow cut could be used with an angle grinder on a shoe but in practice it will be hard to control. Device will want to drive forward hard all the time.

Clive.

PS Were I to make such a shoe I'd cut two suitable lengths of angle from the tube by hand.  Join them at the right spacing to make slightly larger channel able to slide smoothly along the tube, this should automatically provide suitable for the disk.  Long sides will protect the disk when you put it down.

Edited By Clive Foster on 05/08/2017 12:30:46

Edited By Clive Foster on 05/08/2017 12:36:56

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

As Baz says convert to metric and you will fine 50×38 channel is available as the construction industry went metric many moons ago. Such as this they have over 50 lengths in stock.

 

Not sure why welding two bit sof angle together should be "messy"  the two angles in teh foreground were welded up as the smaller sizes are not availabe. For your use it probably does not even need fully welding, just a 1" bead of weld every 6" or so would do.

 

Edited By JasonB on 05/08/2017 13:08:46

[Bob StevensonParticipant @bobstevenson13909]

Some years back I had cause to go to Edinburgh Castle. It was OK, very historic and picturesque etc but what was really interesting was the radio controlled barrow on caterpillar tracks used by the maintainance team …there's a long hill up to the castle proper and the tracked barrow made the transport of boulders etc a doddle. I have considered making a version for my allotment and it should be plain sailing for anybody who describes themselves as 'model engineers'……should be MUCH easier on your back!

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I had to split some 100mm perspex tube using an angle grinder (OK the dremel small but perfectly formed one, with a proper plastic cutting wheel). I made a wooden jig to run the tool along. You could do the same, the difference being I'd use a proper clamp on steel, not hold it in place with my left hand!

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

If you need to slit box section just take it easy, don't force it. When and if it starts to nip the disc, pull out and stop the machine. Then wedge the already cut bit with a screwdriver or similar . This is needed on most dismantling jobs because of locked in stress.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

If I wanted an elevating barrow (guessing here a sack barrow arrangement) I would be going along to farm sales and find a decent one at a sensible price.

[larry PhelanParticipant @larryphelan54019]

I have yet to see anything at a farm sale at a sensible price. Maybe Dave Fenner found the same.

Apart from that,our job is to make things,not just buy them in.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Gentlemen,

Here are pictures of two pieces of equipment I use to aid lifting.

The first is a table which at its lowest 610 mm of the ground and it its highest is 960 mm, I used to support a Class 2 Change Station which got scrapped.

The second is a hydraulic elevator which can lift 150 kg's up to about 5ft.

Please excuse the mess, I'm having a much needed tidy and cull.

Martin P

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

Well not today but yesterday, we went to Quintin in Brittany for an art festival as my daughter is into art. Unfortunately, although billed as being held on the Saturday and Sunday, on the Saturday it's only an evening wingding which they did not say beforehand – some women travelled from the other side of St Malo only to find that out and was not amused, she ripped into the tourist office for issuing wrong information – the actual art festival is on the Sunday only!. So we went round the local church instead and yet again I was just blown away by the workmanship of the stonework pillars.

Just how did they chisel out all those blocks that make the pillars, out of granite, with hand tools, with external right angle corners and round column pieces in the same block, and all matching, to get complex pillar configurations, getting a surface finish as good as a machine tool would today, by hand, back then 1000 years ago or so whenever it was, to achieve such a perfect end result? How did they mark it out and ensure all blocks matched and were square etc etc as they 'manufactured' them? One stands and looks and wonders in awe!

Today, this morning, we went to a local car boot sale in lovely warm sunshine, 75% stalls and customers are Brits, but every so often you are stunned to see there is a local French seller with boxes and tables spread with rusty, and I mean rusty, old hand tools, dodgy very old power tools, odd battered gas bottle gauges of ancient ages, random boxes of rusty screws and nails – sometimes even in boxes with water swilling around in the bottom, and half used pots of paint. How do they think will buy such rubbish? Anyone else would send it straight onto the tip, but no, they turn up and offer this stuff for sale. Not that I ever see anyone buying but.

Chris

[Bob StevensonParticipant @bobstevenson13909]

….Er, you answered your own question,…..if 75% of the attendees are Brit tehn it's kind of obvious that a French market is going to attract local sellers who naturally think that all Brits are thick annoying plonkers who are daft enough to buy anything!

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

<<Just how did they chisel out all those blocks that make the pillars, out of granite, with hand tools, with external right angle corners and round column pieces in the same block, and all matching, to get complex pillar configurations, getting a surface finish as good as a machine tool would today, by hand, back then 1000 years ago or so whenever it was, to achieve such a perfect end result? How did they mark it out and ensure all blocks matched and were square etc etc as they 'manufactured' them? One stands and looks and wonders in awe!>>

**LINK**

The link gives a clue to some of the methods used but note this paragraph:

"Today’s restorers have been replacing damaged column segments with fresh marble. To speed up the job, engineers built a flute-carving machine. The device, however, is not precise enough for the final detailing, which must be done by hand. This smoothing of the flutes calls for an expert eye and a sensitive touch. To get the elliptical profile of the flute just right, a mason looks at the shadow cast inside the groove, thenchips and rubs the stone until the outline of the shadow is a perfectly even and regular curve."

There were some classy simple ideas about. I like the way stones for archways were cut..suspending the components from a chain to test accuracy.. if they all met and hung right with the right curvature then they'd fit properly when the arch was constructed the right way up..

[clogsParticipant @clogs]

ChrisH, welcome to France……..hahaha……

in nearly 14 years only managed to buy 2 engineering related items, both obscure HSS sized tap's, oh and a big hand guliotene which eats 3mm steel………..but, have bought many great items including an ancient dog cart and several metal cabinets….I have a thing for casters, as virtually everything I have is on wheels or can be moved by pallet truck, cabinets, drawer chests and benches etc (decent industrial caster's about €8 for 4 swiveler's here)…….next time go to the smaller village "Brocantes" or "Vide-Greniers"…….u never know what u'll find…..we just missed a perfect pony Hurse….yep for dead people, €600 it was worthabout 3,000….it was perfect…….

sorry ur trip was messed up, we've travelled for miles for different event's and are not surprised if they are cancelled, we think it's a bonus if it goes to plan…..now we don't travel so far…..nothing over an hour………

look up Vide- greniers.fr or Bocabrac.fr next time for dates……..sometimes u can find "Auto or Moto Brocantes" car or motorcycle jumbles, but wear a nappy as the prices are just plain thru the roof……hahaha……..

better luck next time….clogs

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

our job is to make things,not just buy them in.

Your choice but it is only a tool. I just bought a shaper; or should I have made one instead?

[larry PhelanParticipant @larryphelan54019]

Hi Martin,

Your no 2 picture is more what I have in mind since I need to lift from floor level to workbench height.

Dont even mention a clean up,I dont know where to start !

[larry PhelanParticipant @larryphelan54019]

Hi Chris,

Dont talk to me about "boot sales" They have one over my way every so often and such a collection of crap I never saw being offered for sale,how they expect anyone to buy it is beond me. Boxes of rusty screws,broken hand tools,clapped out power tools,all swimming in water,yes,I,ve seen them all. Such rubbish!,yet,someone must buy them or they would not be there. Needless to say,I just laughed and walked away.

Some years ago I went to a market outside Amsterdam which was good. I bought some tooling and some saw blades which are quite good,still using them. There was just so much stuff there ! But markets here,I just avoid them,unless I need a good laugh !

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by larry Phelan on 06/08/2017 16:22:13:

Don't talk to me about "boot sales" They have one over my way every so often and such a collection of crap I never saw being offered for sale,how they expect anyone to buy it is beyond me. Boxes of rusty screws,broken hand tools,clapped out power tools,all swimming in water, yes, I've seen them all. Such rubbish! Yet someone must buy them or they would not be there. Needless to say,I just laughed and walked away.

Such things are bought by hoarders, who have a completely different mentality.

You see a pile of crap that ought to have been thrown away years ago.

They see a pile of stuff that is in better condition than the 'I'll use/restore/need it one day' junk festering at home. They instantly persuade themselves that the reason they've never used the broken side-fumbling dingle-arm that they've had for decades is because it's too far gone, and therefore buy the 'better' one. The old one is kept because it will be useful for spares. Twenty years later, their executor just chucks the whole lot in a skip hired for the purpose.

[larry PhelanParticipant @larryphelan54019]

Chris,

Forgot to mention that some years ago I went to an "Ideal Homes" show,which was being held in a disused railway depot. The show was the usual collection of slick salesmen trying to flog you something you never wanted anyway,so after a while I lost interest in it and began to look at the building instead. Now,that was worth seeing,for the ironwork and the brickwork alone ! I spent the whole time wandering around just looking at it and to Hell with the show.

I too have often wondered how they handled,never mind shaped those stones,and all without cranes or power tools ! I can,t even split a brick right. Even the woodwork and wood carving is something else,and the layout and proportions are second to none,and all with simple equipment,not a laser in sight !

PS And not a sign of the HSE either ! Just as well,or they would never have been built .

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Posted by larry Phelan on 06/08/2017 16:10:08:

Hi Martin,

Your no 2 picture is more what I have in mind since I need to lift from floor level to workbench height.

Dont even mention a clean up,I dont know where to start !

What about an electric beam mounted hoist.

Martin P

[larry PhelanParticipant @larryphelan54019]

No, "Not done it yet",I think you have missed the point. There is a difference between a shaper and a simple hoist.

I doubt if even you could build a working shaper. By the way,why do you want one one ? would a mill not be a better buy?

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