Electric vehicles

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Weight of base model Tesla3 is 1611 kg, base model VW Passat is 1390 kg, but does that include a full tank of fuel? If not add say 180kg and there's not a lot in it.

The only thing putting me off going electric next time is the extra cost, hopefully by the time I'm looking to change that will have levelled out.

I notice a report that BMW is to move all IC engine manufacture to UK. Might be good in the short term, but not long term

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

top all this non essential commuting, travelling salesmen, FtoF meetings, site working tradesmen travelling every day. Everyone live within cycling, or bus range of work if it needs physical presence

Which presuposes that there is an even distribution of suitably skilled workers who live within walking/cycling distanceof workplaces. And given the woefull lack of training of skilled trades people over the last 30 or more years, that is unlikley to be the case. Fine if you want to work in hospitality or retail (both now under threat) – not so easy for skilled trades. The days of there being large numbers of similar employers within a town or area are long gone – getting "on your bike" to find something suitable or paying a better wage has been the way for a long time now.

I don't enjoy commuting 48 miles each way to work, but have done so for coming up on 15 years because (1) it pays better than I can get locally & (2) I like the chap I work for.. The latter holds more sway than the former, having not liked the more local employer I endured before the move. Most of my colleagues also travel, due to the location of the company & workers with the required skills not being available locally.

The "personal transport" genie has been out of the bottle for so long now that there will be very strong resistance to change. A 1 – 1/2 hour drive to & from work at my convenience at a fuel cost (currently) of around £9 a day, or 2 1/2 hours each way on the bus + train at a current cost of £35 a day – would you volunteer for the latter ?

Fortunately I will be retired before I am priced off the roads using personal transport !

Nigel B.

[Steve Skelton 1Participant @steveskelton1]

Duncan, wow I did not know Passats have about a 50 gallon tank – no wonder they go so far on a tankful!!!!

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by Steve Skelton 1 on 21/11/2020 14:55:12:

Duncan, wow I did not know Passats have about a 50 gallon tank – no wonder they go so far on a tankful!!!!

DOHHH……got so used to buying fuel in litres

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by duncan webster on 21/11/2020 14:25:31:

[…]

I notice a report that BMW is to move all IC engine manufacture to UK.

.

Not quite, Duncan

… Here is the link I posted early on 19-Nov

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An interesting development: **LINK**

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-bmw-engines-idUKKBN27Y2I6

MichaelG.

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

One thing that surprised me when I started to become involved with hybrid and electric systems (and I don't profess to have vast electrical or electronic experience, my involvement is more on the nuts and bolts side) is the batteries! There are a whole host of companies in the world "making" batteries. However that "making" consists of connecting and arranging cells in cases with the appropriate connecting and monitoring of the individual cells to ensure a balance in discharge / charge and temperature control of the myriad of individual cells they connect within their "boxes". There are few companies in the world that are actually making the individual cells from which the major "battery manufacturers" can actually purchase the base of their products. The cleverest bit and seemingly where the major advances in "technology" are coming from right now is the way the connection, control and balance is achieved and managed rather than the base cell chemistry. Seemingly the next best step in battery development will come from changes in chemistry of the base cells. There is a new chemistry that has come to market in the past couple of years that leads to a more stable base cell and less heat being generated (thus more efficient as less waste to heat) but currently it is not yet up there in terms of power density or cyclic life.

The comic video of a car with all the door panels and other voids filled with Duracell AA batteries is a lot closer to the truth than many would realise!

IDS in Harry's link makes some good points about hydrogen if it can be generated in a green way then hydrogen has the best potential to be the greenest overall and also at the end point of use more flexible and closest to operation as we know it. The one thing he did say in that interview which is fact but often conveniently ignored is none of this is cheap! Even taking the life cycle of a vessel as 25 years is no help when today's hydrogen prices in terms of kW/kg are more than double that of distillate fuel. As far as I can see the green revolution will widen the gap between the haves and have nots and lifestyle for the masses will return to reliance on public transport rather than personal transport! The current policy is just a way of subtly implementing that by economically removing choice.

Paul.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by will hawkes on 21/11/2020 11:50:12:

i have solved the problem ,do not have a car or van and now use a 1937 panther motorcycle for all my transport needs including trips to the shops ,no road tax no mot needed and classic insurance at £68 ,fully comp ,,couple this with 100 mpg and you get a happy pensioner

I bet you have a stiff leg though. Used to have a 600cc Sloper.

Steve.

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

Add to my "not thought through" comments.

I have read today – I must admit I knew this fact but had forgotten it – that the government also want to phase out gas boilers for house heating – a figure of was it 24.5million homes heated by gas at present? – and presumably gas for cooking, to be replaced by electricity. That is going to add shed loads of required electrical generation capacity/load to our power generation/distribution system.

If we are to go electric cars in 9 years time, and if we are to add getting rid of gas heating/cooking to the equation, then we need loads more power stations being started to be built NOW, not to mention the upgrading of distribution systems. How long to design and build a power station? Years! You don't need to be a genius to do the maths!

Nowhere have I heard or read of those being even thought about, never mind planned and being built.

Get the candles in! And stock pile bottled gas perhaps!!! Or logs. Or charcoal. Built an all-weather barbie! You may need it all.

All this has NOT been thought through. End of.

Chris

Just saying!

Edited By ChrisH on 21/11/2020 21:35:11

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

I'm too old to worry, and would never be able to afford a new vehicle in any case. The sale of second hand cars won't be forbidden after the date.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

I think you will find, on checking, that the government is to halt fitment of gas boilers in new builds (within the next five years?). I’ve not heard or read that any existing gas-supplied dwellings are to have there supply removed.

Unless their house building records are improved, it won’t make that much difference in the next twenty years.🙂

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

There was a news report yesterday evening that the ban on gas supplies – not just boilers, as I understand it but may be wrong – in new homes was to have started in 2023 but has been dropped or (more likely) delayed.

Give a bunch of politicians – or all parties – anything the least bit technical and thinking through it is the last thing they do. If there is any silver lining to come from this pandemic it is that governments do need to take notice of specialists.

Who knows, they might even by now have appointed a Chartered Engineer or two to the Board of HS2 – when I looked some while ago it had no engineers at all but did have a "Director of Strategic Partnerships". So that's all right then. Whatever one of those does.

Someone I think from the AA or RAC was commenting on the very high price of electric cars. She agreed but said second-hand ones will become available. Aye – ones with clapped-out batteries costing a fortune to renew and which never had the range of the newer models anyway?

Friends who own an electric car tell me that a journey he needs take for his work fairly regularly, takes two charges each way, whereas its petrol predecessor used less than a tankful for each. If they take a long drive in Winter they need wrap up warmly to avoid using the heater, which on theirs at least (I don't know the make and model) apparently takes its power from the traction-battery.

I wonder if we'll see Re-charge Rage? "The latest can be recharged in quarter of an hour!" say the enthusiasts. That's comforting if you've a 300 mile journey on a cold, wet Winter evening, a journey impracticable or impossible by public transport, and every service-station has six cars ahead of you at each charger. Oh, and then your so-called "smart"–phone fails so you can't pay for the electricity because those who Do Not Think Ahead have failed to compel the manufacturers to fit card-readers, nor come to that, one standard connector for all vehicles.

Nor do they think of those us who live in flats or (as I do) terraced streets built when cars were only just appearing – and in fact so were battery-powered cars, vans and small lorries. Or in some modern housing estates like Middle Farm ("Poundbury&quot just outside Dorchester, with very many homes in pseudo-18C terraces with real 18C lack of any adjacent parking areas. I think that came from a deliberate Governmental policy to discourage car ownership on the premise that everyone will live within walking distance or a short bus ride of their school, work, surgery, out-of-town supermarket etc., and never go anywhere else.

Obviously we need go to a filling-station anyway with an i.e-engined car, but refilling-time is usually only a matter of minutes so the queues are normally short, the pumps are standard sizes and do not need an expensive portable phone and so-called "app" to use them. (Many pumps have car-readers, too.)

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by ChrisH on 21/11/2020 21:33:59:

Add to my "not thought through" comments.

I have read today – I must admit I knew this fact but had forgotten it – that the government also want to phase out gas boilers for house heating – a figure of was it 24.5million homes heated by gas at present? – and presumably gas for cooking, to be replaced by electricity. That is going to add shed loads of required electrical generation capacity/load to our power generation/distribution system.

If we are to go electric cars in 9 years time, and if we are to add getting rid of gas heating/cooking to the equation, then we need loads more power stations being started to be built NOW, not to mention the upgrading of distribution systems. How long to design and build a power station? Years! You don't need to be a genius to do the maths!

Nowhere have I heard or read of those being even thought about, never mind planned and being built.

Get the candles in! And stock pile bottled gas perhaps!!! Or logs. Or charcoal. Built an all-weather barbie! You may need it all.

All this has NOT been thought through. End of.

Chris

Just saying!

Edited By ChrisH on 21/11/2020 21:35:11

Yes you have just said the passage i wrote at the begining of this thread. My point was they have not thought this through. This can not happen in the time frame quoted.

2nd point. What they are aiming at with the heating is to have each household to have an oil rig type drill. Bore down in your garden to a depth of, i do not know & extract heat from the ground permalayer stuff. Pipes will be sank deep in the earth & a water pump will circulate the water & extract the heat from the ground. I know in somewhere like Sweden they do it because the earth at a deep location is quite hot & they make use of it. Free energy.

They quote 15 grand for the drill rig to bore the hole for you. Not sure how the mechanics of it all come together but that is the basic idea. Along with other items like heat pumps which are stated as giving more kwh per unit of electricity make them more efficient than gas. Someone will be along shortly to explain this, as i only know the basics.

I used to spend quite a bit of time in Majorca many years ago. Most of the locals had a water tank on the roof with a solar type panel which circulated water over a reflective corrugated panel. Because it is hot most of the year they had free hot water from this system.

Back to the theory that they have not thought it through. Bear in mind. The government make most of there revenue from. Car tax, Revenue from gas & electricity suppliers etc etc. & petrol + diesel. Huge amounts.

I have a Ftype Jaguar V8 The tax per year is £609. An electric car is free. I buy a crap load of fuel as the thing farts out enough emission to power a small village. But gives the government a huge amount of tax & VAT on fuel.

Move on 10 years or so & tell me ANYONE how this can work.

So now i am super green. I have a solar system on my property , I have a wind generator too. I have a underground water heating system that saves me say 50 to 60% on energy for heat. All these things give the gov 0 . On top of this i have an Electric pram, which is free of tax.

Unless they plan to employ Dick Turpin they are going to be skint & Boris will be on benefits to top up his wage.

Is all this really going to make this little pimple on the map called the UK great again. MMM.

Who gives out the most crap on the planet. India, China, They had to wear masks before Covid for the smog, i cannot see them going totally green like we are supposed to go.

Rant over. Regards all

Steve.

 

Edited By Steviegtr on 22/11/2020 00:26:10

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

You are missing the point that taxes are used to : raise revenue, manipulate public choice and/or adjust social status. The incentives available at the moment of reduced EV taxes are to encourage it's uptake. The feed in tariffs that used to come with solar PV were to encourage it's uptake etc just as enterprise zones encouraged businesses to relocate and just as death taxes raise revenue and reduce the creation of dynasties. Amongst those wealthy or astute enough to buy advice or figure out on how to avoid some of these the effects are mitigated.

Governments will never have a problem inventing new revenue raising taxes. The obvious first approach to recovering lost car taxes is to charge a tax on mileage (poss related to battery capacity). Even if all utility costs vanished it's easy enough to increase taxes by size of house. We already pay income tax plus VAT – easy enough to increase VAT and change it's tiers. it's easy enough for gov to, say, spin a tax on imports as a transport tax or a tax on import manufacture pollution or levy even higher taxes on any target group (those evil pensioners who saved far too much?) – way higher death taxes and reduced pension savings allowances are in the pipeline already.

Remember that in the past there used to even be a tax on number of windows.

There are two reasons for moving away from oil – because it;s running out and because it left us dependant on the middle east. There's reasons for generating our own leccy – because we can and because we import a heap of it and because it creates a new industry and jobs. And so it goes on.

You also have to realise that many of these new creations are also ways of creating revenue for political friends and used as part of trade deals (getting on dodgy poitical ground so no more to be said here).

Changes are inevitable but none of the big changes will happen quickly. No new ICE's after 2030 means we won't be all EV etc for 20+ years. If all new homes had heat pumps it'd still be 20-30 years before that filters down to all homes having changed boilers or heating systems.

Out here rurally I have oil heating… and have just made arrangements for the end of life boiler to be re – placed with a new much more efficent one – way more cost effective (efficient) at the moment than converting an old house to ground sourced heating but I do also have some air-source heating/cooling and own wood to mitigate it. Solar UK has efficiency limits and here I have a high ridge to the south and lots of trees that makes it useless with low winter sun but i have my own borehole and reed-bed sewage. Gov has survived without me paying water rates.

As for drilling holes where necessary for boreholes or ground source heating – can't be done everywhere anyway or you disturb other ground effects – deep water flows, utilities, sewage systems and you couldn't do it behind a row of terrace houses for instance. But it's much less disruptive than you may think…. not a case of huge derricks needed at all. Look up Passivhaus as another away of keeping energy usage down with new builds.

pgk

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Look up Passivhaus as another away of keeping energy usage down with new builds.

Little chance of that working for the majority on this forum. Just check out the proportion of posters who advocate adding extra heating for keeping workshops warmer/dry, rather than insulate, insulate, insulate.

What the majority of posters on this thread don’t seem to grasp is that sooner or later we have to reduce (or stop) burning fossil fuels. Sooner is clearly better (but I suspect there is a significant faction who still think otherwise☹️ ).

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Duplicate post.

Edited By not done it yet on 22/11/2020 08:11:41

[John RutzenParticipant @johnrutzen76569]

Electric cars aren't the answer, driving a lot less is. Apparently 50 years ago the average mileage was 5000 per year , now it is 25000. Think of all that time wasted sitting in a car. At least most of us haven't done much driving this year.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by John Rutzen on 22/11/2020 08:19:31:

Electric cars aren't the answer, driving a lot less is. Apparently 50 years ago the average mileage was 5000 per year , now it is 25000. Think of all that time wasted sitting in a car. At least most of us haven't done much driving this year.

car mileage

UK average mileage is given as 7.4K 2019 down from 9.2K 2002. Business mileage is roughly double private mileage. If memory serves those that actually had a car circa 70's did about 12K. Lower annula mileage is countered by higher number households with car(s).

pgk

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

I see nothing, yet, to suggest the EU is going to impose the same madness upon the Continent.

So, how does that portend for the future of Continental travel in your EV ?

Take your generator, transformer ,plug/socket , extension lead with you ?

[DanielParticipant @daniel]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 21/11/2020 12:53:59:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 21/11/2020 12:00:28:

Electric cars are superior to petrol in every way apart from one – the battery.

.

.

Scalextric sorted that one out

MichaelG.

Very good

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Here is a (possibly) useful internet site showing real world ranges, etc of BEVs – but at motorway speeds, which are going to be somewhat different to urban motoring.

**LINK**

They have clearly not included those vehicles which cannot achieve motorway speed of 110kph. The earlier (with smaller battery capacity) nissan leafs don’t seem to rate at motorway speeds.🙂

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by J Hancock on 22/11/2020 08:31:29:

I see nothing, yet, to suggest the EU is going to impose the same madness upon the Continent.

So, how does that portend for the future of Continental travel in your EV ?

Take your generator, transformer ,plug/socket , extension lead with you ?

Link

It may not be an EU imposed set of rules but plenty of national incentives amongst the richer countries.

Euro charge-points Link

No shortage of charge points albeit fast ones areless common but growing exponentially and there is a set of standards emerging.

Route planner

You can play with this site making selections of trip types, vehicle specific and (if memory serves) make allowances for weather. It's calculations take account of altitude changes too.

pgk

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

A last point, for the accountants.

Energy from wind is free , yes ?

Or, if not free , then after all maintenance costs have been paid , free, yes ?

IF that is not the case , then how can any of the Green Policy be justified ?

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Of course everyone has a different requirement from their vehicle but I suspect many of us do mostly short journeys with some longer trips for days out or weekends away. 10,000 miles a year is 200miles a week but I doubt that it would be that evenly distributed. Much of the time the car will only need a top up a few times a week. The Tesla’s are an impressive vehicle that will do what most people could ever want, PGK has let us in on what living with a Tesla is like but although it is a very practical vehicle I think it falls into the I want one rather than need one category. Hopefully in the future I am going to have the problem of choosing a replacement vehicle and I am thinking maybe buy a relatively short range vehicle and hire one for long range trips. I can sit back for a few years and see what happens. There may be some fun to be had doing a long distance trip with a short range vehicle, a couple of mates decided to go to a motorcycle rally two up with camping gear on a Honda 50, all credit the the Honda it didn’t let them down.

Mike

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Mike Poole on 22/11/2020 09:40:33:

[…]

Hopefully in the future I am going to have the problem of choosing a replacement vehicle and I am thinking maybe buy a relatively short range vehicle and hire one for long range trips. I can sit back for a few years and see what happens. There may be some fun to be had doing a long distance trip with a short range vehicle […]

.

Keep putting pennies in the piggy-bank, Mike … Morgan might be back in the game one day !!

**LINK**

https://uk.motor1.com/news/405763/morgan-discontinues-electric-three-wheeler/

MichaelG.

[John RutzenParticipant @johnrutzen76569]

I don't know where the figures came from but I was quoting from a radio programme about increased car mileage per year, Unfortunately I can't remember what the prog was or when! Perhaps it was in the States. The batteries for electric cars do cause a lot of pollution due to the mining for the materials. Perhaps the programme was averaging the mileage over the population in which case the increased car ownership would account for it.

Edited By John Rutzen on 22/11/2020 10:04:18

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