Electric Cars

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember19781]

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[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Barnaby Wilde on 11/07/2019 20:19:47:

Anyone who still has their 'wits' about them can work out that EV's do not yet win the economic argument over an ICE equivalent. If the environmental aspect cancels that out for you then I'm sorry to say that you probably misunderstand the true environmental impact of anything & choose to believe what you believe to be true.

I also listened to the recent radio 4 slot on EV's with great interest, it got very many things very horribly wrong.

Did you know that the EV equivalent of an ICE vehicle costs substantially more to insure??? Of course you did, after all you still have your 'wits' about you & you believe everything that the BBC says . . .

I have £100 to donate to the charity of your choice, to anyone who can come up with the real reason that the insurance underwriters consider an EV to be a greater risk than it's ICE equivalent . . . .

'Barnaby', where did you get the idea 'the EV equivalent of an ICE vehicle costs substantially more to insure?' Can we have some examples please?

And please don't leave us in suspense – what is the 'real reason' insurance underwriters consider an EV to be a greater risk than it's ICE equivalent . . . .

Dave

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Posted by not done it yet on 12/07/2019 19:46:32:

Posted by Clive Hartland on 12/07/2019 14:31:38:

It would help if all the naysayers would do a little research before posting? Or is it just ‘heads in the sand’ mindset?

I personally dont see the point of searching for something I will never be able to aspire to or afford and I certainly dont have my head buried in the sand.

Martin P

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

What is the most glaring omission in all the public waffle about leaving the crude oil in the ground (as that young lass from Sweden thinks she's eminently qualified to tell Governments to do), or in the more serious warnings about it running out?

Anyone spot it?

If you do are far more on the ball than most politicians, reporters and "green" (!) campaigners put together….

There's a clue in RMA's comment that politicians don't think things through.

[BazParticipant @baz89810]

What is MSM, google tells me it is a drug useful for Arthritis, must be doing something wrong, silly me.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Baz on 12/07/2019 21:39:48:

What is MSM, google tells me it is a drug useful for Arthritis, must be doing something wrong, silly me.

Or even 'Men who have Sex with Men'…

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by 34046 on 12/07/2019 20:51:20:

…

Quite how you would come up with an electric or something else replacement for the Boeing 747 or the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier I know not.

…

Bill

I think all the US Carriers are nuclear, and at least one features an electromagnetic catapult. Organic fuels including diesel can be made from cereal if need be. It's horribly expensive but that might not worry the military much.

The Queen Elizabeth's propellers are driven by electric motors, though not for green reasons – the electricity is diesel generated with gas turbine boosters.

Dave

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Barrie, there is a lake in the USA that has millions of tons of of Lithium under the surface layer. It takes some extracting and is shipped all over the US to achieve this.

Everybody is hoping for some spectacular breakthrough for motive power, physics at the moment are not giving anything useful it seems.

My post was more of a query about how all this was to be achieved but what the hell at 82 my time on this planet is a bit limited and I am not splashing out anymore monies on pie in the sky expensive cars.

Most of what I posted was/is quite valid and I would like to see some answers.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Clive Hartland on 12/07/2019 22:40:25:

Most of what I posted was/is quite valid and I would like to see some answers.

.

I answered your 'military' question, Clive … and I was entirely serious.

MichaelG.

.

Example: See para 36.1.3 on the first page of this chapter:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/488850/20160101-375_2016_P2_Vol1_Chapter_36_V1-0_Asbestos.pdf

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 12/07/2019 23:04:33

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[dcostaParticipant @dcosta]

Hello Clive,

In Portugal there is also lithium.
See **HERE** please.

Regards
Dias Costa

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Nicholas Wheeler 1 on 12/07/2019 17:50:39:

Posted by pgk pgk on 12/07/2019 17:07:02:

Electric lorries are on the way but this amount of road transport has been nonsense for ages. It needsa radical rethink on the 'just in time' logistics and transport way more by rail to basic hubs or even go back to the jolly old barge idea when cargo is inert. We need to get away from this constant rush to spend and use up resources.

You do know that the expensive bit of moving goods is not the distance that it travels, but any handling that is required? So moving stuff from A to hub B by rail, to a distribution centre C then to the destination D is much less efficient than forking it onto a truck and going straight from A to D.

The aim of the excercise is reduced pollution and road congestion. I cant argue specifics here because I don't have the figures but a large majority of bulk imports are going to end up at some form of distribution center sich as a supermarket wharehouse or courier hub anyway. In terms of containers and HGV loads then logic suggestsonce on a railway wagon (or barge) the automation should get it to at least C without using roads f the infrastructure is there and with fewer people employed.

[Barnaby WildeParticipant @barnabywilde70941]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainstream_media

If you think that your opinions cannot be swayed by your MSM of choice, then please explain to me how the advertising industry works . . .

[Barnaby WildeParticipant @barnabywilde70941]

The thing that scares me the most about EV's is how they intend replacing road fuel duty.

On the basis that many companies that drive our economy don't actually pay tax, road fuel duty is used as an alternative method to 'tax' that economy.

You lot think that your highways & motorways are there for your convenience, they're not. The Romans discovered that a fast transportation system is the veins & arteries of an economy.

So how do you think they're going to replace road fuel duty???

[BazParticipant @baz89810]

Replacing road fuel duty, probably by road tax on the car or a mileage tax and / or taxing electricity, maybe just for charging cars but who knows? They certainly cannot afford to loose the billions of pounds of revenue earned from petrol and diesel.

[wendy jacksonParticipant @wendyjackson]

If the government paid for all car drivers to have a new ec, there would be a need for two or three extra power stations, miles and miles of new cables for charging stations. It will never happen. And like most recharge batteries they start to loss charge after a time. The government wants our money from petrol,diesel what ever, they will not pay the billions needed to build power stations etc. I don’t understand why public transport can’t be improved first, made cheaper and the first thing to thing about when planning a jouney.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[Barnaby WildeParticipant @barnabywilde70941]

Posted by Barrie Lever on 13/07/2019 08:51:09:

Barnaby

Your question.

"So how do you think they're going to replace road fuel duty??? "

I am sure that there will be some stitch up on the electricity meter in domestic installations, where by there is a second meter for charging EV's. For road side charging then it will be quite easy to get the electricity taxed, I predict that the payment for roadside charging will be done via some dreadful app on a mobile phone.

I think that politicians hope and pray that the electricity supply infrastructure will organically grow to meet the new demand, of course there is quite a bit of evidence to support that this will happen if you look back over the last 150 years.

B.

I don't see how that will work. If the juice I put in my EV is heavily taxed then I'm going to put the cheaper juice in. Once the juice is in my batteries whose to know what the source was? Who's going to Police it & how? Perhaps they could dye the EV juice red?

I originally thought that the introduction of electricity 'smart' meters was a forerunner to a multi-tiered method of taxing electricity, but they've proven to be a total disaster & I think our politicians have dropped them like hot potatoes, at least for the near future . . .

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

The problem with politicians, on any subject, not just electric cars, is that they can never see beyond the next General Election.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

The one thing Governments never have problems with is inventing new taxes. Road pricing by monitoring licence numbers is an obvious starting point on main arteries.. if only for the slealth benefit of keeping a log of where everyone goes. It'd be easy to cross reference that with annual mileage figures and adjust annual licence fees too.

The whole thing is a nonsense designed to create business and employment and coerce motorists to gov's will otherwise we'd already have fuel taxes that pay for vehicle excise and insurance etc and do away with all the increasing number of folk driving with neither. Virtually all petrol stations use licence number id to reduce fraud now – it'd be so easy to simply adjust that system so unlicensed vehicles can't buy fuel. Just as it's taken an age to bring in legislation to speed limit cars (from 2022) and get rid of traffic cams on 70mph roads but we have 'smart' motorways that vary the speeds beyond new car capabilities to track by gps so they can still fine you.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Baz on 13/07/2019 08:31:45:

Replacing road fuel duty, probably by road tax on the car or a mileage tax and / or taxing electricity, maybe just for charging cars but who knows? They certainly cannot afford to loose the billions of pounds of revenue earned from petrol and diesel.

Or maybe they can. In 2016/2017 Fuel Tax (not just Petrol & Diesel), raised £27.9Bn whilst the 'Public Sector Gross Operating Surplus' at the same time was £47.2Bn. That could have been used to remove Fuel Tax entirely and also give every man, woman and child in the country £30 in cash.

£27.9Bn is a lot of money, but Fuel Tax is sixth in the UK league table of revenue sources raising over £2Bn each:

Income Tax – £185.6Bn
VAT – £135.4Bn
National Insurance – £125.9Bn
Corporation Tax – £55.9Bn
Council Tax – £30.4Bn
Fuel Tax – £27.9Bn
Business Rates – £26.8Bn

and so on down to £2.2Bn in 'Vehicle Excise Duty paid by Businesses'. The total tax revenue is £726Bn.

Fuel Tax could be replaced by increasing Income Tax. As that would be unpopular, unfair and take steam out of the economy, more likely it would be spread across several tax sources such that most people wouldn't notice the difference. And the door is open to taxing electricity supplied to vehicles, the technology needed to do that is straightforward.

Dave

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

C’mon guys,

Perhaps I’ll be accused of being condescending again, but it is actually reality (not thinking with the fairies) that all vehicles can be fitted with GPS locators which can pinpoint your actual position to metres, so could calculate/measure every journey. Very simple, then, to charge the registered owner by distance travelled for that particular vehicle. Tesla virtually monitor it already!

No reason, these days, that goods vehicles should ever be overloaded as they can have load cells fitted to monitor how much load they are carrying (as well as the distribution over the axles). Last time I loaded a grain wagon with corn, the driver told us how much more he could accommodate and where to tip the bucketfuls of grain.

Simples.  Make road usage charges by distance and mass?

Only 30 years to develop and standardise the infrastructure? How long have mobile phones been around (in their pocket sized format)? How long has personal computing been available? ICE cars have only been around for about 120 years. Get real, times change, technology marches on. I don’t necessarily like all of that, but it is reality.

30 years ago, mobile phones were ‘bricks’. I bought a Model B BBC Acorn computer with 32kB of RAM (Ive still got it) back in the very early ‘80s.

For our hobby, how long will it be before 3-D printing takes over rather more than it does already? How long before manual lathes and milling machines are relegated to the pastime of the minority of model engineers?

I do hope that the younger generation can be better informed of the dangers that humans cause to themselves and the environment, and actually take it onboard. If they don’t, the end of civilisation (as we know it) will not be far off by the end of this century.

Into my 7th decade, it will not particularly affect me – but it will be a problem for my grandchildren and their off-spring. Thinking ahead has never been a strong point of humans, even though we do have that capability.

That includes Joe Public as well as those large companies that are currently raping the planet and its life-forms. We can think DDT, CFC aerosols and refrigerants, plastic waste, mercury in the food chain and loads of other errors made in the past. Companies could include fossil fuel, cigarette manufacturers, asbestos users, pesticide manufactures, among others. They have all had strong lobbyists at some time or another.

The worst scenario, of course, might be the (inevitable?) use of modern-day nuclear warfare, which could easily mark the end of most life on the planet (any read Neville Shute’s ‘On The Beach’? Published in 1957, only about 60 years ago, but could still turn out to be starkly true. Humans do seem to have a certain propensity to destroy themselves and their surroundings.

Go on, have a real think before condemning the inevitable change from ICE vehicles. They are totally unsustainable in the longer term, in their present form.

Edited By not done it yet on 13/07/2019 10:16:49

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

One of the factors that makes an electric vehicle viable is the whole life cost of going electric, at the moment the vehicles are more expensive but the fuel is cheaper, if the government move the tax loss from fossil fuel onto electric vehicles then the cost of motoring is going to go up, I doubt that electric vehicles will really get cheaper as the manufactures will try to hang on to as much of any savings as they can. I would think the drive train for an EV is cheaper to make than a petrol or diesel apart from a very expensive battery. Maybe the plan is to price people off the roads. Maybe the future will not be the simple replacement of personal cars, as most of our cars spend the vast majority of their life just parked then maybe shared vehicles or driverless taxis will become common, if the countries vehicle fleet spends its life on the road then we may have clear streets instead of using them as car parks.

Mike

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