Death of Model Engineering?

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

People are using forums like this rather than joining model engineering clubs.

Why? Perhaps people tend to see clubs mostly as just being for those who want to run locos and don't see the other advantages?

The astronomy club I'm in meets twice a month. It has one formal meeting with talks, guest speakers etc. and one less formal meeting aimed at beginners where many of the presentations are just people sharing their recent work/experiences.

We have a what's app group top look for opportunities to observe on those rare clear nights at short notice and an active blog where we share images etc.

The club si buidling an observatory which cold be considered the equivalent of having a track.

It's all very 'responsive' and focused there's a twin focus on outreach and helping getting people involved, e.g. by demonstrating gear or helping them set up their equipment.

It doesn't seem very different from model engineering, but astronomy seems to be growing and thriving despite needing a similar range of investment in cash, space and time to model engineering.

I don't know what to learn from this, except sharing experience and enthusiasm seems to be key.

Neil

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

We have to face the fact that the majority of model engineers are quite mature.

1) A lot of us learned, at least the basic skills, at school, college, or as Apprentices.

2) As "those of mature years" we have more disposable income, our mortgages are paid off, we have fewer demands on our money, and being retired provides time for hobbies.

3) The younger folk have the reponsibilties of holding down a job in an increasingly difficult market, financial commitments in the shape of mortgages, possibly school fees, and the expenses of having a young family. So their spare cash, and time are much less than us oldsters.

4) The tendency for everything to be controlled from a keyboard, downgrades the manual skills involved in Engineering. So nationally, we are less practical, to the point where some find it difficult to screw a nut on to a bolt, "clockwise?"

5) If we do not emphasise the importance of Engineering, school leavers will not realise what produces the world in which they live. They need to know that the skills involved will enable them to do things that they now either cannot imagine, or believe to be impossible. Sometimes such abilities could even be life saving.

Some Model Engineering Clubs, with other organisations (Traction Engine Trust Steam Apprentices for example) encourage younger folk, to sample and appreciate the enormous satisfaction of actually making something, and even better, something that works.

Full marks to those Clubs that do this, and to display the young talents!

We grew up with things like Meccano and model trains, Many under twenty years olds have never had those advantages.. We should show the benefits of such activities, how they can provide experience which can be read over, in later life, to advantage in earning our living.

Younger folk should be encouraged to see and taste the advantages of practical work, by being made welcome, helped and encouraged.

If we don't, the hobby will not just change, it WILL atrophy and then die.

We must not reach the stage where the last Engineer switches off the lathe for the last time!

Howard

Edited By Howard Lewis on 15/11/2018 13:58:16

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

Another thing to consider is that modern housing is getting more densely packed, no spare room and rarely garage for a workshop…

Derek

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

The hobby of Model Engineering was quite wide ranging in the early Percival Marshall era. An increasing number of magazines have focused on narrow parts of the wider subject and ME has taken on live steam as its major interest. The spinoff mag MEW seems to have a wide sphere of interest for home workshop activities and the magazine banner has workshop writ large and model engineers has less prominence. The magazines and shows have become niche but the whole maker community is still quite large if you add all the niche sections together there are quite a lot of us.

Mike

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Model Engineering on the way out? I dont think so,just seems to be moving in a different direction. Nothing wrong with that,since not everyone is interested in spending their entire life building a model of this or that locomotive from a bygone age.Engineering embraces a much wider field than that,although to read some of the Posts here of experiences people have had while trying to join clubs,you would never think so. When they explained that they were not building this or that engine,they were snubbed. Not the best way to get new members.

There are many people out there who,like myself,have neither the interest nor the skill to take on this kind of work,and I do admit that it takes great skill,but I just dont have it! However,that does not prevent me from getting great satisfaction and enjoyment from using such equipment as best I can. So what if I dont produce a masterpiece,or leave it behind me,unfinished,when I go on my merry way ?

There will always be those who worship the steam engine,the same as those who worship motorbikes,cars,aircraft,ect,There,s room for them all,that,s what engineering,Model or Fullsized is all about.

Clubs need to remember that,and adapt to it.That way,the movement will live on,not die. I have made many things over the years,most of them useless or nearly so,but it,s the making of them,not the end product that matters. It, all part of the "Learning Curve" [For me anyway ]

On the subject of shops closing down,this happens all the time as trading conditions change. For better or worse,the Internet is here to stay,so one just has to adept to it. I know it,s not the same as going into your local dealer to buy and chat,but that,s the way things are moving. In a few years time,there may be no local dealers I dont have the answer to this,does anyone ? but you must admit that the Internet has opened up a whole new world to small operators like us,and long may it last.

OK,That,s my rant,for what it,s worth,and sorry if I walked on a few corns,but as my Mother used to say "You,ll get over it "

It,s worth remembering that the water in a stream never stands still.

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Posted by derek hall 1 on 15/11/2018 15:15:25:

Another thing to consider is that modern housing is getting more densely packed, no spare room and rarely garage for a workshop…

Derek – good points. The only thing stopping a club workshop from being successful is our minds. It worked when I was living in the Netherlands, but back here in Canada, it seems to be a "no go".

Also, I was really surprised at an American lad (Chris Rueby) who built a 3-1/2 inch gauge Shay with small Sherline equipment, did a build log on another site, and did it in 1/20th the time that I did mine, with 1/500th the space and tooling. A strong lesson here.

To sum up: maybe it's not so much the hobby as the mind-set of the participants?

Here's a link to the Shay build:

**LINK**

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by mechman48 on 15/11/2018 12:58:57:

Very nice work, nice video, I do like the little shaper he has.

George.

Hands off George, I got first dibs on the shaper in a post on on page 1 ………..

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Worth looking at this, do scroll down and read the later parts.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45247637

It's not just about Lego.

Neil

[Bob YouldonParticipant @bobyouldon45599]

Hi all,

Is it dying/, i think not but the whole hobby has changed and it will continue to evolve, I've been at this game now for over sixty years, I started at school and I still find it a joy today, it's interesting to hear the doom sayers out there, Percival Marshall back in 1908 was concerned there seemed to be little interest from the younger generation and sadly to many of the=at generation never returned home ten years later. Today we have the technology, CNC water and lased cut components, 3D printed lost wax items becoming available to the home builder, Take a look at any model engineering exhibition and admire the quality of the work produced, compare that to say forty years ago. In those days it was thought a 2" scale traction engine was large, I remember public passenger hauling with a 21/2" gauge Atlantic, look at what the model boat and aircraft folks are doing today, gas turbines, sub miniature radio gear, no it ain't dying, too many doom sayers out there and there is still interest by a young membership, my own society's both have an active young membership so the interest hasn't waned, it's still there.

Regards,

Bob

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Some of you want a small powered shaper?

Plans on Internet, make it your next project!

[Bodger BrianParticipant @bodgerbrian]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 15/11/2018 13:52:34:

Perhaps people tend to see clubs mostly as just being for those who want to run locos and don't see the other advantages?

That certainly applies in my case.

The nearest club to me claims (several times) on it’s website that it’s members have a wide variety of interests but you’d never know it. Most of the pages are about the operation & maintenance of the miniature railway they operate – you really have to burrow down to find any hint of other interests and then it’s less than a handful of photos of non-railway items in a gallery of items on display at the Midlands ME Exhibition.

The next nearest society makes the same claim and once again, the gallery of members’ work is predominately of railway related activity with only a handful of other work on display. At least this one appears to be more welcoming, giving details of where & when meetings take place. You’d never know the first one actually had any meetings apart from when the railway was running.

Although I can see some advantages to joining a club, for me these are outweighed by the disadvantages.

Brian

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Roderick Jenkins on 15/11/2018 12:25:05:

I think we need to ask Arc, Warco, Chester et al whether home engineering is dying out. My guess is that more hobby machine tools than ever are being sold.

Rod

For Arc, we are seeing a steady increase in sales of hobby machine tools to a younger audience 35 to 55 years of age. The hobby market has changed for us, slowly moving away from the traditional loco hobbyest, to customers with other hobby interests. Most of these people who we serve are very new to the hobby of engineering, and as such have very little knowledge on the basics due to the way things have changed in education over time. However, they have plenty of enthusiasm with willingness to learn.

For this reason, (as discussed in another thread) Arc invested in sponsoring the beginners series on lathework and milling, in the MEW magazine since October 2017. We are just starting to see the fruits of this investment.

Whilst gaining these new people into the hobby of engineering, we have also seen a decline for certain products within the hobby arena, which has luckily been offset by a good increase in custom from business users. Funny enough, the increase in business custom stems to a certain extent from hobby users. Either way, we are grateful.

For Arc, its roller coasters, swings and roundabouts.

Ketan at Arc.

 

Edited By Ketan Swali on 15/11/2018 19:19:48

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

You have to remember that railway model engineers need a club for the cost / space / manpower for the different gauges required to run them. I'm sure that shunting up and down a 30foot track in their back gardens has limited appeal. Also Station Rd Steam has been banging out engines for those who 'want it now' for some time, where do these purchasers of model engineering fit in? It's not like the split between builders and drivers is a new thing, it just that the drivers have found a new & additional supply of ready built engines and the machine suppliers do not know they exist.

Those of us building TE's don't need a club except for the boiler certs, clock makers don't need clubs at all, neither do the builders of IC engines so it's not so surprising that clubs tend to focus on rail.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Back in 1898 the so called experts told Percival Marshall that his new magazine wouldn't last a year—-well it should do another one or two. Model engineering will not remain the same as it was 120 years ago, but it was then looking forward, to aviation, electicity, wireless/radio. In the first volume there is plans for a small open crank gas / petrol engine that would be big enough to dive a small lathe, I think it was actually rated at 1/6hp.

Ian S C

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Brighton & Hove club has 5 very young and very keen members. The eldest produces our newsletter, "The Lobby" under guidance/tuition from the previous member and the youngest who is only about 12 has shown a keen interest in making bits and is being tutored by an older member in using the club workshop lathe. I think 3 of them have got their own electric locos which they drive for an hour or two before passenger running and on wrinkly days for as long as the battery charge holds out! They all have use of a couple of club electrics as well. They are all keen to help selling tickets, loading/unloading members locos on and off the track, sweeping up masses of leaves from surrounding trees and putting out the electric signal heads around the track and general help clearing up putting things away in sheds after use. They are a great team of youngsters. By way of comparison, another local club doesn't seem to have any young recruits and they are the ones who run school holiday model making and loco driving classes.

I can only assume that the above enormous variation is repeated elsewhere around the country. What do other forumites find?

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

After reading through this I would like to think model engineering will be with us for a long time yet and fully embracing modern technology. This tech will not always fit in to some definitions our our hobby, I know of model engineers who insist that CAD, CNC and 3D printing have no place in our hobby while others only that!

If I was asked this question many years ago I would have suggested the hobby was finished. While at school and developing an interest in the hobby I went to the local ME club. Looking back, their attitude to youngsters was awful, basically I was told to go away and not bother them again. I'm so pleased to see clubs now welcome youngsters.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Perhaps one problem is that, just as the lathe is the mother of all machine tools, model engineering is the mother of many 'technology based' hobbies.

Aeromodelling, model shipwrighting, radio control, amateur radio and electronics, clockmaking, astronomy and many other hobbies originally had their practical needs covered by Model Engineer magazine, but have spun off into largely independent fields. Often supported by a specialist publication launched by Percival Marshall – never one to miss a business opportunity!

Perhaps we need to be less backward looking and put even more effort into looking for what's coming next; we shoudl have been way ahead of the curve with CNC/CAM and 3D printing, for example, not lagging behind.

Neil

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

It may be true that the number of hobby shops is going down. But this is in a market where the number of all shops is also going down. So, if that is the basis of the claim, it does not seem a valid conclusion.

I suspect that a similar effect (apparent reduction) applies to magazine circulation figures, which are affected, as real shops are, by the interweb. But by how much have eg Milling cutter sales on e-bay reduced in the last ten years?

Cheers, Tim

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

One other thing to consider, big tools are often a huge investment. My grandfather bought his Lathe with his payout from the Navy on demob, it's now with me many years later. It will someday go to one of my children. The bigger bits may be old but they are still equally as valid alongside the newer technologies.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

My young grandchildren are all fascinated by machining and the older two are now getting very good at doing lathe work. They are already eyeing up my renovated round bed Drummond, with a view to parting it from Grandfather!

Andrew.

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Yes, Tim, a lot of shops here in Brighton have been repurposed by changing consumer demand. Model Aerodrome in West st was there for many years but I think it's now an eatery. Airds toolshop in Bond st became a bookshop but now an eatery. There was another toolshop in London rd, now a foody joint. It seems that every other shop in Brighton flogs takeaway food. There was another very good toolshop in Hove, think it was called Westbourne Tools, now long gone. A very large motor spares and toolshop in Hove went earlier this year for redevelopment. Funny how the big shop chains grizzle about reduced footfall but keep quiet about their booming web based sales. I believe that there will not be much about other than food shops because a lot of people can't resist food – just observe all the wide hipped jellies rolling along the pavements! All bank branches will go especially when cash is totally redundant. Its happening now with swipe n go cards. Even surgeries are trying to get patients to use an app for diagnosis. Pubs are going fast but thats mainly due to cheap supermarket booze.

Live long enough and you won't recognise the world as you used to know it!

John

Edited By DMB on 16/11/2018 17:17:30

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Tim Stevens on 16/11/2018 15:30:44:

I suspect that a similar effect (apparent reduction) applies to magazine circulation figures, which are affected, as real shops are, by the interweb. But by how much have eg Milling cutter sales on e-bay reduced in the last ten years?

My understanding is that the gradual decline in paper magazines has been balanced by the increase in digital sales, especially subscriptions – at least for MEW.

Readers support for the magazine is greatly appreciated!

Neil

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by DMB on 16/11/2018 17:15:08:

…

Live long enough and you won't recognise the world as you used to know it!

John

Apparently things change less in 5 years than we expect and more in 15.

I was in Tesco's last week moaning at my son because the pesky scoundrels had reorganised the shelves again. Every time stock is moved I waste time looking for stuff and it makes me grumpy until I suss out the new layout.

It's hard to keep up. Son looked at me as if I was mad. There's an App that knows where everything is and he has no trouble finding what he needs. I don't even have a phone…

Dave

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

I get a lot of fun and interest out of my Lathe, Milling Machine and other metal bashing tools. But my interests are much wider than 'Model Engineering' if you believe model engineers only make small steam locos and traction engines.

Today I did something completely different : I made a working FM Radio. Although no discreet components, printed circuit boards, or soldering were involved, this is definitely engineering. The hardware is a FuncubePro. This device digitises a band of radio signals and presents it to my computer via USB. The output is a jumble of numbers that can be processed as I want to extract information. A Software Defined Radio replaces large numbers of expensive discrete components with a collection of algorithms and the effect is revolutionary.

I used a modelling tool called gnuradio-companion to 'make' the radio by defining and connecting a few sources and sinks. It looks like this:

Top right are the three boxes that demodulate the FunCube's digital output as Wideband FM. The recovered audio is passed through a filter to make it sound better, and then dropped into an Audio sink, which is my computer's soundcard. Also connected to the FunCube is a Waterfall display. Rather than demodulate the signal as FM, it is broken into a 3D plot of time vs frequency and intensity. This is a visual representation of Radio 2 playing a snatch of pop music.  It means my toy FM Radio is also a spectrum analyser.  Much more sophistication is possible than this simple example.

This is one example of the sort of engineering other people are into. My point is that whether they know it or not they are also part of our community. 'Model Engineering' is a broad church. To my mind something that covers basic human interest in 'making things' will never die, even though particular specialisms might wax and wane. As cutting metal is more relaxing than the cut and thrust of advanced technologies, I think traditional Model Engineering will attract like-thinking people for ever. I'd rather cut threads than think about Fourier Transforms.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 16/11/2018 19:16:14

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Funnily enough someone brought this up at our club meeting which must have been about an hour before this thread was started. We were also voting on an increase in subs which are lower for OAPs. The Treasurer remarked that of the 32 people present I was the only one still in full time employment. When I joined I think I was 33 and while probably the youngest then at least half were paying full subs. Now I think only six out of 80 are working and several of those are part time and past retirement age.
It was even suggested that we should drop the 'engineering' from our club name to emphasise the need to diversify from pure metal and balsa bashing to take in the plastic kits, model cars, makers etc.

[Author]

Posts