Covid causing mental health issues.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 22/09/2020 22:33:27:

So if the population is 3 and they have IQ's of 50 100 and 120 the average is 270/3 = 90 which means in this case only 30% of the population is below average IQ. Maybe it's not so glaringly obvious after all.

regards Martin

IQ was always the average of the population= 100 but with any statistic and particularly when it is determine by low population numbers you have to eliminate the wild cards. Statistically invalid but for your example the new IQ would be 110 (on the old scale) so 1 each above and below and a wild card.

pgk

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

One of the functions of the Men's Shed movement is to provide this kind of support environment for people who are lonely or needing someone to talk to outside thier family. And by providing a men only situation similar to the old traditional workplace for many it is a comfortable situation, a home from home like a shed at the bottom of the garden but with some friends too.
Some people get the same from their gang of regulars down the pub, a sports club or a bunch of football supporters meeting at a match.
Then some people get this from their hobby club, whether knitting, art, pottery and……making models. Yes the Model Engineer's clubs are a form of Men's Shed providing psycological support for those who need it, even those who don't realise they need it. I have mentnioned this at one of my ME clubs and got shot down by some, appreciated by the more intelligent.

Oh, yes, social media and forums too. This forum is providing quite a few people with a community contact amongst 'friends' and like at the pub a few assholes too. Shock Horror. You just got some mental health improvement by reading my post.

Personnaly the effect on me of lockdown has been the opposite as not having to go to work or shed, clubs and church has given me a pleasant freedom from direct human contact. I think my true calling is as a hermit.

[Del GrecoParticipant @delgreco45469]

Just my 2c.

I'm in my mid 30s and only got into ME after a car accident prevented me doing my other hobbies. (Skydiving and scubadiving.)

Most of the gents in my local club are retired and either live with their partner or alone. Those who are alone really struggled as the ME club, or going to the shop was one of the few times they could meet other people.

At the height of lockdown here in Ireland, they were prevented from doing both of those activities, meaning they were completely isolated.

Closer to home, I consider myself lucky as I rent out a room in my house to a couple around my age, and have a partner. I also have a home office, so working remotely was not a big deal to me. I also have constant contact with 3 other people. (housemates and partner)

Some of the people I work with live alone in a 1 bed flat with no space for an office. (Rent in Dublin is crazy.) They are forced to work remotely (luckily they are still in work) but from a laptop sat on their bed for 40h/week, as they don't have any space.

Separately, a lot of my friends and people I know, would be in regular contact with their parents/grandparents. They had to stop all / most physical contact, as they were worried about passing the infection on to their vulnerable family members.

I think the big thing here is everyone is different, and people cope with things differently.

If you cope with bad news/days by meeting friends, this sucks for you.

if you enjoy seeing family/friends, this sucks for you.

If you enjoy going to the pub for a pint with friends, this sucks for you.

If you live alone and most of your contact with people is through clubs/societies, this sucks for you.

If you are lucky and not feeling any limitations on your life, you are lucky, and many people I know would love to be in your situation.

 

One of the other side effects of all this working remotely, (for the people lucky like me who can work remotely, comfortably) is that there is no clear distinction with work and non-work time. Lots of people are working far longer hours than they would normally, and are feeling pressure there. My manager quite happily fires off emails and calls often as late as midnight. even on weekends. He lives alone, and so he is probably bored which is why he's working. But that then pressures other people to work later.

I personally don't think it's a single thing causing people issues. Its normally a few issues compounded up, with no real outlets or ways to release them back to a good place.

I'm pretty lucky in that I got into ME about 2 years ago so I have loads of projects on the go, (probably too many) and a few different places to seek help if I'm stuck. ME is also quite a solitary hobby compared to others. (e.g. sports) and we get our enjoyment from the process and the results. And thankfully, Covid is very supportive of this type of hobby.

Lastly, when I first got into this, lots of my friends thought I was odd for having this as a hobby, at my age. Now almost all of them are jealous I have something which I enjoy which can occupy so much of my time. Lots of them are now searching for similar hobbies, like painting, musical instruments, crafts, cooking, drawing, model trains, etc. I find it very strange how few people have what I would call a real hobby, nowadays. We are definitely in the minority for that!

Stay safe people. And keep sharing your builds. It's a great motivator, and really satisfying seeing what others can do.

D

Edited By Del Greco on 23/09/2020 10:38:38

[Rik ShawParticipant @rikshaw]

I'm usually quite good at staying cheerful – then I read this thread

Rik

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Rik Shaw on 23/09/2020 10:58:29:

I'm usually quite good at staying cheerful – then I read this thread

Rik

Keep calm and carry on modelling.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Rik Shaw on 23/09/2020 10:58:29:

I'm usually quite good at staying cheerful – then I read this thread

Rik

I'll cheer you up!

Nothing like some music & dance to lift the spirit.

'Staying apart brings us closer together'.

Martin.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Posted by pgk pgk on 23/09/2020 00:58:29:

Posted by Martin Kyte on 22/09/2020 22:33:27:

So if the population is 3 and they have IQ's of 50 100 and 120 the average is 270/3 = 90 which means in this case only 30% of the population is below average IQ. Maybe it's not so glaringly obvious after all.

regards Martin

IQ was always the average of the population= 100 but with any statistic and particularly when it is determine by low population numbers you have to eliminate the wild cards. Statistically invalid but for your example the new IQ would be 110 (on the old scale) so 1 each above and below and a wild card.

pgk

Is that not the median rather than the average?

regards Martin

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by Peter G. Shaw on 22/09/2020 21:27:26:

Martin P,

Just to put something into perspective, earlier this year I was doing some genealogical research on a man who may have been my wife's grandfather, and I managed to trace his ancesters back to around 1800. Strange as it may seem, two families of his ancesters, both originally living south of Lancaster, migrated to Bradford in the mid 1800's. Now how did they get there? No buses, roads probably no more than cart tracks, railways possible but maybe not, canal, possible but maybe not. Just think of the stress involved in uprooting from Lancaster, leaving all their friends behind probably never to see them again, and making that trip to Bradford, looking for somewhere to stay, and then finding a job.

Peter G. Shaw

What perspective?

The Yorkshire mills were recruiting all over the country. They went to Bradford the same way Jeremy Paxmans family did when they left Suffolk, on an organised trip to an organised job.

[David NobleParticipant @davidnoble71990]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 22/09/2020 22:33:27:

Posted by David Noble on 22/09/2020 21:52:23:

Posted by pgk pgk on 22/09/2020 19:15:21:

Posted by martin perman on 22/09/2020 18:52:13

…50% of the population have below average IQ…

pgk

I know this is glaringly obvious but it hadn't dawned on me before. It explains a lot!

David

So if the population is 3 and they have IQ's of 50 100 and 120 the average is 270/3 = 90 which means in this case only 30% of the population is below average IQ. Maybe it's not so glaringly obvious after all.

regards Martin

I always knew there was a reason that I disliked statistics! 😬

David

[JAParticipant @ja]

Posted by David Noble on 23/09/2020 15:22:49:

Posted by Martin Kyte on 22/09/2020 22:33:27:

Posted by David Noble on 22/09/2020 21:52:23:

Posted by pgk pgk on 22/09/2020 19:15:21:

Posted by martin perman on 22/09/2020 18:52:13

…50% of the population have below average IQ…

pgk

I know this is glaringly obvious but it hadn't dawned on me before. It explains a lot!

David

So if the population is 3 and they have IQ's of 50 100 and 120 the average is 270/3 = 90 which means in this case only 30% of the population is below average IQ. Maybe it's not so glaringly obvious after all.

regards Martin

I always knew there was a reason that I disliked statistics! 😬

David

I love statistics. With care you can prove anything with them.

JA

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

In the 1930s work was available at the car factory in Oxford, many people walked from South Wales to Oxford to get work, enough made the trip for a new housing estate in Cowley to become known as Cowley Welsh. I am sure desperation was a factor in making the journey rather than a desire to move to Oxford.

Mike

[GaunlessParticipant @gaunless]

Stiff upper lip lol. What the hell even was that? Too many old giffers here who think they fought WW2 but were actually in their father's knackers at the time.

[Andrew EvansParticipant @andrewevans67134]

Posted by Gaunless on 23/09/2020 17:50:45:

Stiff upper lip lol. What the hell even was that? Too many old giffers here who think they fought WW2 but were actually in their father's knackers at the time.

[RMAParticipant @rma]

Posted by Sam Longley 1 on 22/09/2020 21:42:21:

Imagine laying in bed on a thursday evening wondering how you are going to pay the staff on friday morning when you have just been told by the bank that they are going to call in the overdraft & reposess your house which you have used as guarantee against the loan.

Must be even worse if you throw in some covid for luck. Regardless of what you are told about loan holidays , the interest is rising & the loans still have to be paid- eventually. So it is not all about those with low IQ.

Then add in a bit of marital unrest & you have a pending suicide on the cards, I bet

Imagine being a wife locked in a 3 room flat, day after day, with some barsteward who wants to bash the life out of her, just because she says the wrong thing, or because the kids play up a bit.

I would have thought mental health issues will be VERY high on some people's agenda.

Well said.

Mental health problems are as individual as people. The original poster is, by his own admission, happy with his lot and clearly the Covid situation hasn't affected his lifestyle and I hope that continues, but many people are affected in various ways by this year's events, some very seriously.

The thread/conversation has as always, diverted 'off track' and I don't understand what IQ has to do with mental health. Where did that come from? Some of the greatest brains around have suffered from mental health, depression isn't selective!

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by RMA on 24/09/2020 09:24:49:

Posted by Sam Longley 1 on 22/09/2020 21:42:21:..

…

The thread/conversation has as always, diverted 'off track' and I don't understand what IQ has to do with mental health. Where did that come from? S…

My take is the thread isn't about Covid or Mental Health either. I think it's about a perception elderly men have had since time immemorial. We believe young folk today are feckless, weak and useless compared with their superb forefathers!

Chaps who feel this way are in good company: Aristotle and the Romans thought the same. However, the theme repeats itself from generation to generation and across cultures. If it were true, civilisation couldn't exist, and it does. The belief is wrong.

One give away is it doesn't matter how old you are, in the opinion of your elders and betters you too were rotten to the core in your youth:

• 1938 “Parents themselves were often the cause of many difficulties. They frequently failed in their obvious duty to teach self-control and discipline to their own children.”
• 1945 “…in youth clubs were young people who would not take part in boxing, wrestling or similar exercises which did not appeal to them. The ‘tough guy’ of the films made some appeal but when it came to something that led to physical strain or risk they would not take it.”
• 1951 “Many [young people] were so pampered nowadays that they had forgotten that there was such a thing as walking, and they made automatically for the buses… unless they did something, the future for walking was very poor indeed.”
• 1984 “A few [35-year-old friends] just now are leaving their parents’ nest. Many friends are getting married or having a baby for the first time. They aren’t switching occupations, because they have finally landed a ‘meaningful’ career – perhaps after a decade of hopscotching jobs in search of an identity. They’re doing the kinds of things our society used to expect from 25-year-olds.”
• 1993 “What really distinguishes this generation from those before it is that it’s the first generation in American history to live so well and complain so bitterly about it.”
• 2001 “They have trouble making decisions. They would rather hike in the Himalayas than climb a corporate ladder. They have few heroes, no anthems, no style to call their own. They crave entertainment, but their attention span is as short as one zap of a TV dial.”
• 2020 "Where is the stiff upper lip? How would these people go on if they had been alive 200 years ago? Ever heard of cutting your coat according to your cloth? Sorry, I have no sympathy with these snowflakes."

Examples all pinched from 'History Hustle' apart from the last, which is Model Engineering Forum.

I suspect old-chaps belittle the young for psychological reasons. I'm finding being an ex-Alpha-male difficult to accept now I'm retired. Once a mighty power in the land now I'm told to take care by ignorant boys in their fifties. And I'm not trusted to go shopping for a loaf of bread without a list.

Out in the world things are constantly changing without my approval, and I don't get half of what's going on. Surely it's enough to know who the Rolling Stones are!

A very natural reaction is to reject change because old dogs can't learn new tricks. Therefore all new things are bad.

To counterbalance this sense of decay, I now believe I'm a wise old sage. I may not understand smart phones, but I am fully qualified to make to choose how the country should be managed. As my time is short, quick results are needed from measures that won't effect me: bring back hanging, national service and the birch. It's about power: I must assert my authority, otherwise I am a zero.

In truth, human nature hasn't changed at all. Society is much the same as it ever was, and grandad doesn't like it, often with good reason. But trailing behind is our problem, not the youngsters. They have to deal with the future, not us. The job includes clear up our considerable mess as well as facing new challenges. The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there. Accept it and let the youngsters get on.

Final thought: if young people really are snowflakes, it's entirely their parents and grandparents fault. No different from making stuff on the lathe – if the result is bad, you know exactly who cocked-up!

I've every sympathy for anyone finding Covid difficult. It must be the worst crisis this country has faced since 1941. Poly-trauma to businesses, families and individuals. Covid may be no more than a mild inconvenience to retired persons with no debts who can isolate but be aware millions are taking a good kicking. Too easy to say other folk should be brave when you haven't tasted the whip yourself.

Dave

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

IQ is considered to have a 'normal' distribution:

But while it's 'true' that 50% of the population are below average IQ that really doesn't say anything in itself. Even if we were all high-functioning genius, half would still be below average. In fact IQ tells us very little that is useful about how well people will do in their lives socially or professionally except at the extremes, and even people with above average IQ can have learning disabilities (e.g. dyslexia/reading difficulties depending on your perspective).

I've certainly found that whether someone is 'clever' or not is a definitely not a measure of their worth.

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Just to add, we need to show the same level of understanding for those who find it hard to understand what is going on for some people.

Like many of us I've had my ups and downs over the past months, and last weekend I went mountain biking with my brother and a couple of friends (4 <6!) I can honestly say the combination of effort, excitement and terror meant that for a blessed day I had no other worries whatsoever!

I think that absorption in hobbies (not just this one) really helps as does the ability to share experiences online when we can't meet up.

Though all generations are more comfortable discussing mental health issues these days, it seems many still don't seek help. I would remind anyone who is struggling there is lots of help out there including mental health charities focusing on various groups and these days GPs are much better equipped to help people.

Neil

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

As an aside, as I live alone and most of my friends are now dead I only have FB or text contact with my Sons.

I have a dog, an Airedale who I talk to often. She is forever hungry and demanding , wanting to go around the garden so the back door is nearly always open. She can open it herself.

The point I am making is that my involvement with Tess is beneficial to me and in some ways theraputic.

How do other members find there dog or cat friends help in these times?

Clive

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 24/09/2020 12:42:51:

… In fact IQ tells us very little that is useful …

I've certainly found that whether someone is 'clever' or not is a definitely not a measure of their worth.

Neil

I'm not even sure it's worth measuring IQ because the whole concept is built on sand! There's a built-in bias because even with careful design IQ tests depend on education and culture, which aren't intelligence. They detect who is good at answering IQ test questions, which is only one of the many forms of intelligence. Exams when I was a lad were faulty too – they tested memory as much as anything else.

Cleverness also depends on context. Shakespeare's plays show he had no aptitude for maths, while William Shockley (Nobel Prize winning co-inventor of the transistor) was an appalling man-manager who moved on to controversial views, including the idea that anyone with an IQ under 100 should be sterilised. See Neil's graph for why that's ultimately stupid! James Watt was a bad businessman. A colleague fluent in French and German couldn't stay awake during meetings. How about engine designers expert in thermodynamics who can't service their own car. I can write computer programs but don't ask me about music. Most of us shouldn't play poker for money! The list is endless.

Society is a team game, and I reckon the species has evolved the range of brain qualities needed to support all the necessary specialists. Blokes who are good at making things are needed as much as intellectuals and vice versa.

Never believe being clever at one thing guarantees being smart at everything else. Off our patch we are all stupid. There's always a time when the intelligent approach is to send for an expert.

Like IQ, valuing people by what they earn is another horribly misleading measure. Can't be right footballers earn more than nurses because we can manage without soccer! Following through on footballers vs nurses, logic insists anyone who enjoys sport must be a bit thick because they believe men who kick balls should be rewarded more highly than life saving professionals.

Sports fans needn't take the criticism too hard, I don't believe it myself. I'm suggesting the example of dodgy logic and IQ tests are only valid up to a point. Don't take either too seriously! You are all wonderful.

Dave

[GeorgineerParticipant @georgineer]

Posted by Baz on 22/09/2020 19:27:29:

Now look at it from the point of view of mum dad and two young children, I strongly object to them being called kids, a kid is a young goat. Dad has to work from home, only place he can do this is on the kitchen table, no spare bedroom or study, just a standard modern three bed house, little or no garden so dads trying to work, zoom meetings, telling the children to be quiet why he is talking to customers, mum cannot prepare meals because she needs the table, the children want to see their friends and they cannot so they start picking on each other, mum has to try and keep the peace as well as worrying if dad is still going to have a job next month, etc etc, I can see how it could affect someone’s mental health. True story from a family near me.

A family known to me is even worse off, with three children (one autistic), living in a flat with no garden, father out of work and mother unable to work. We do what we can to help them. I count myself lucky.

I'm afraid, Baz, you may have to accept the 'kids' issue as a lost cause. Punch magazine was taking the mickey as long ago as the 1880s – this is by F. Anstey, author of Vice Versa – and I see no prospect of change.

George B.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I spent my working life in a car factory, most of it as a Control Engineer. The production workers did not need any academic qualifications but have to be able to work hard and reliably and be able to tolerate the relentless repetition of a production line. Curiously you could find very highly qualified people and people with all sorts of skills and talents working there. Some had opted out of life in the fast lane and just wanted a simple job, an alchoholic was always on time and did his job as required, a good worker. Sadly two highly talented lads in our department committed suicide unrelated incidents many years apart but both over relationship problems. The first was a real shock and nobody suspected he was having problems, the second was still a surprise but drugs and poor attendance were signs all was not well.

Mike

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

I would say more likely 75%

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 24/09/2020 14:37:43:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 24/09/2020 12:42:51:

… In fact IQ tells us very little that is useful …

I've certainly found that whether someone is 'clever' or not is a definitely not a measure of their worth.

Neil

I'm not even sure it's worth measuring IQ because the whole concept is built on sand! There's a built-in bias because even with careful design IQ tests depend on education and culture, which aren't intelligence. They detect who is good at answering IQ test questions, which is only one of the many forms of intelligence….

And yet there is a definite correlation between IQ and income, confirmed by multiple studies. Those with higher IQ tend to have higher incomes over a lifetime, as a general trend. So IQ tests must measure something of practical use in life other than just the ability to take IQ tests.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Hopper on 25/09/2020 12:25:00:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 24/09/2020 14:37:43:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 24/09/2020 12:42:51:

… In fact IQ tells us very little that is useful …

I've certainly found that whether someone is 'clever' or not is a definitely not a measure of their worth.

Neil

I'm not even sure it's worth measuring IQ because the whole concept is built on sand! There's a built-in bias because even with careful design IQ tests depend on education and culture, which aren't intelligence. They detect who is good at answering IQ test questions, which is only one of the many forms of intelligence….

And yet there is a definite correlation between IQ and income, confirmed by multiple studies. Those with higher IQ tend to have higher incomes over a lifetime, as a general trend. So IQ tests must measure something of practical use in life other than just the ability to take IQ tests.

Correlations can be misleading too. In the UK for over 30 years there was a strong correlation between violent crime and the sale of White Goods. Yet most people who buy washing machines and fridges aren't criminals. In the same time-frame, the equally strong correlation between violence and ever increasing sales of leaded petrol might seem a more likely cause, except that was unproven too as far as I know.

I suggest the link between income and IQ is as much to do with education and culture than intelligence. Coming from a wealthy well-educated family is more strongly linked to high income than having a disadvantaged background. Not just a matter of inheriting cash and property, it's because a successful background creates more opportunities and the contacts and confidence needed to do great things. Clever people can and do make it on their own merits, but it's much easier to become president of the USA if your dad was a billionaire.

Like a lot of things IQ Tests are useful up to a point, but it pays to understand they may not be valid. For example, IQ scores are rising across the world except in developed nations were it is falling. If IQ tests really measure intelligence, then most forum members reading this are in the group becoming more stupid! Lead in petrol again?

Don't panic, it may be the difference is down to culture. Maybe educated people in developed countries don't care about IQ much – we've moved on.

Just before retiring my workplace got emphatically into competences; ie acquiring skills and measuring performance using them against objectives. No idea if they still do it – as a way of getting people to increase output at reduced cost, I wasn't convinced! Created a lot of stress and inefficiency, but may have come good – I left before any benefits emerged.

Dave

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Hopper on 25/09/2020 12:25:00:

And yet there is a definite correlation between IQ and income, confirmed by multiple studies. Those with higher IQ tend to have higher incomes over a lifetime, as a general trend. So IQ tests must measure something of practical use in life other than just the ability to take IQ tests.

They tend to be biased in favour of people who are good at written tests, and as we use written tests to measure ability in other areas it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

They have found results are also affected by cultural bias; give people tests that reflect their culture (e.g. when matching or differentiating symbols, those we are so used to may not be as easily recognised elsewhere). It's an effect found in other areas the South/East Asian pre-eminence at mathematics is thought by some to be routed in the complexity of growing rice rather than wheat.

Neil

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