Copper Plating

[Chris VParticipant @chrisv]

Thanks so much John, that's really interesting. Are you saying the Norman is more rigid than the Dickson?

I think I see your Norman parting tool post appears to be fixed to the cross slide by one tee nut?

Best regards

Chris.

[John BaronParticipant @johnbaron31275]

Hi Chris,

Yes I believe it is ! There is less overhang than the Dickson. With the Dickson the tool holder overhangs the chuck side of the top slide. With the Norman tool post the tool is over the top slide.

As far as the rear tool post is concerned, yes it only has a single "T" nut supporting it. but it does go across the full width of the post. I know where you are going with this and I did get another piece of steel to make a second block that will fit at the bottom of that post and have a second bolt to add more rigidity. Though I have not had any issues with parting off using it as it is.

At the moment I'm looking for a suitable motor for my modified "Brooks TCG" and waiting for the Chinese to get their finger out and send me an ignition coil.

Regards: John.

Edited to add, I forgot to answer your question about sharpening !  No I've never sharpened a carbide cutter.  Yet ! But since they are flat faces a diamond stone should be enough.  But a set of 18 is only £10.00p

 

 

Edited By John Baron on 19/02/2020 19:47:45

[Chris VParticipant @chrisv]

Hi John,

Ah yes got it, thanks for explaining re overhangs.

Actually I was thing I wonder if a Norman could be made & fitted to a lathe other than a Drummond, seems it could be. Is the other Norman you photographed on a Drummond?

Best

Chris.

[John BaronParticipant @johnbaron31275]

Hi Chris,

You can make it for almost any lathe.

Historically it was designed in the late 1880's by "Van Norman" and used by Rolls Royce, Drummond, Myford among others. I'm not sure why it was dropped, but Myford started supplying the four tool holder, which became popular.

I did a set of drawings sized for my lathe based on the original patent, which I seem to no longer have and can no longer find it on line.

Its quite straight forward to make. Drop me a PM if you want a copy.

The hardest part is getting and drilling a suitable length of bright steel bar. The post is 35 mm in diameter. Since it sits over the existing support shaft its length will be determined by that less the nut and washer on top. I turned mine from a length of 40 mm hydraulic cylinder rod. In order to get the finest finish that I could, I used a shear tool and polished it with a Scotchbrite pad.

After that the tool block needs to be prepared before being bored. You need a good close fit so that it slides up and down without any noticeable play. All easily done on the lathe. You will need to be able to mill the 13 mm slot for your tools.

Regards: John.

[Chris VParticipant @chrisv]

Ok I'm getting nowhere fast with the copper plating. I have a 2lt water filled pasta jar with 12oz of crystals dissolved and a 2 amp power source. The electrode is 12" long, thick wall copper tube, 1/2" dia with 3/16" centre hole.

+ connected onto the electrode, – onto the part to be plated.

Part is suspended in the solution via copper wire and not touching electrode. There is tiny progress in that the copper part I'm trying to overplate (to cover a soldered repair) has areas covered in what looks like copper filings but from the clips Ive seen on the web it should be plated by now? Its been in about 5 hours today, after an attempt yesterday with a weaker solution.

Any suggestions please?

[John BaronParticipant @johnbaron31275]

Hi Chris,

I wonder if the current is too high or the concentration is. If you have what looks like crystals, then that is what I would suspect. Simply leaving the work in the solution without any electricity should cause the copper to plate out.

Have you any method for measuring the current ? Or any means of adjusting it !

[Chris VParticipant @chrisv]

Thanks John, no means of adjusting or measuring the current, however rather than leaving it switched on all night tonight I will try leaving it submerged without the power on, nothing to loose now!

Cheers

Chris.

[John BaronParticipant @johnbaron31275]

Hi Chris,

At the worse you will only have to clean it and start plating again. The crystals should just rub off and can be re-dissolved.

Re-reading your post, I assume that you had thoroughly cleaned the work before you started plating ! Finger prints or any oil or grease will cause the plating to be patchy.

One other thing that you could try is a single battery, which would be 1.5 volts and would have a very limited current available.

[Chris VParticipant @chrisv]

Hi John,

Previously I had fumed (with ammonia) the copper I'm trying to plate to age it (they are parts for an antique light). Thinking this might hinder the plating process I stripped the fumed surface by submerging in clock cleaner,
a kind of diluted ammonia. After that I didn't touch with bare hands only with rubber gloves.

Do you think that might be the issue?

Last night I tried removing the crystals from one part finding it was relatively tough going, having to resort to Autosol.

Ive turned the power off now but left one submerged for overnight success (-;

Cheers

Chris.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

I vaguely remember this from school, patchy rough plating, think it was due to too strong a solution or maybe the +ve needs to be the same size as the target.

When you see platers in action on TV the electrolyte is moving

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

DAFT question You are using a DC supply for plating?

AC will put the copper on with one half of the cycle and remove it with the next.

Unsmoothed DC with a ripple will not really affect this, but the current draw will not be constant., not that it will matter particularly for your purposes. Feed the PSU onto a 12V battery for a more constant supply.

With regard to electric shocks, not with 12 V!. You'd have to chew the wires to even feel the slightest tingle.

If you are healthy you have a resistance of about 140 K ohms across from hand to hand, and 12 V won't push much current through that! Do not try this with higher voltages. You won't like 240V and it could prove fatal!

You might just feel a tingle at 50V.

DC is the more dangerous, since the voltage remains constant. At least AC passes through Zero, 50 or 60 times a second, giving you a chance to let go. 400 Hz as used on aircraft might be a different kettle of fish, so don't try it!

Howard

[Chris VParticipant @chrisv]

Thank you Dave, I didn't do anything I can remember like this at school so I'm a bit clueless i'm afraid.

What does +ve mean please, and by the electrolyte you mean the plating solution?

Chris.

[John BaronParticipant @johnbaron31275]

Hi Chris,

+ve is shorthand for Positive terminal or voltage, and yes electrolyte is the plating solution.

[Chris VParticipant @chrisv]

Thanks Howard. Please see pics for power source etc.

Yes I can confirm 240 volts hurts as i found out a couple of weeks ago. Hence my nervousness and asking the question! I will be happier and no doubt safer if I can get away with domestic batteries.

Cheers

Chris.

[Chris VParticipant @chrisv]

Thank John!

Chris.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

That looks like a switch mode power supply, and it's only rated at 300 mA. If you don't have enough resistance in the circuit it might either switch off, or expire. I don't suppose you've got an ammeter?

[Chris VParticipant @chrisv]

Hi Duncan, no I don't have one of those.

Turning in for tonight now

Cheers

Chris.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

You need greater distance between electrode and work, the solution looks very strong, make sure the object to be plated is negative.

I would degrease then pickle in vinegar or any weak acid until pink, then rinse well in clean water before plating.

Neil

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by Chris V on 25/02/2020 19:24:36:

Thank you Dave, I didn't do anything I can remember like this at school so I'm a bit clueless i'm afraid.

What does +ve mean please, and by the electrolyte you mean the plating solution?

Chris.

Chris,

Success might depend on the water, you could try distilled in case dissolved lime in the water is causing the problem.

[Chris VParticipant @chrisv]

Thank you Neil & Dave.

I did wonder if the electrode was too close but had difficulty finding a container deep enough but not too large.

However having set up as I have I realised I can use a shallower container & fix through the hole I'm currently hanging the leaf from so that its horizontal.

Having decided I should remove the roughness achieved so far and struggling to remove it with Autosol (the surface is planished) I remembered I have some pickling salts and was trying that to see if it would help when your message came through Neil. The pickle did not remove the roughness so I will have to remove what I can at least on the outside with a polishing wheel.

What should I then use to degrease before pickling again, methylated spirits, turpentine??

I will then bin my solution and start again with a weaker mix. Presumably I should also pickle the electrode?

Seems this can be sheet copper as an alternative?

Can I use a plastic container rather than glass?

Yes we have hard water in Somerset. Would I buy distilled water at a chemist's?

Could I use rainwater instead?

Cheers

Chris.

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

I have not done any copper plating since schooldays but Gateros Plating have a good problem help and tips page here:-

Gateros

Also supply stuff.

No connection to them just a happy customer.

Edited By V8Eng on 26/02/2020 14:54:20

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by V8Eng on 26/02/2020 14:51:08:

Gateros Plating have a good problem help and tips page here:-

Gateros

…

+1 to the Gateros advice. As Chris has discovered electo-plating isn't quite as easy as it seems.

To answer Chris's questions:

1. Household Ammonia is an excellent degreaser, but it risks reacting undesirably with the Copper. It might leave a chemical layer capable of spoiling the plating. Instead, I'd try cleaning with very hot water with a dash of washing up liquid in it. Go over it first with a new stiff toothbrush and then rub well with a new Washup (sponge thingy with plastic scouring back) in a clean bowl. The water should be as hot as you can comfortably cope with whilst wearing thick washing up gloves – Marigold's. Then rinse with Methylated Spirits. Don't use turpentine, it's oily. Getting the metal thoroughly clean is really important, any suspicion repeat. I suppose being metal it could be boiled for half an hour!
2. A plastic container is OK unless it gets hot.
3. Sheet copper is an alternative, but Copper Pipe is easier to source. I'd use pipe.
4. Don't buy Distilled Water – it's expensive. Instead buy De-ionized Water for topping up Car Batteries from Halfords or similar. Also sold somewhat more expensively by most super-markets for steam-irons, but don't buy the perfumed variety beloved by ladies. Plain water only. Rainwater is often recommended as pure, but beware! How was it collected? If off a roof, then don't use it. Water from a dehumidifier is good but only if the dehumidifier is clean.

Comments.

• Don't bin the Copper Sulphate solution, if you want to dilute it just add water. No reason why it shouldn't be used good and strong though.
• The solution should be slightly acid, Copper Sulphate needing Sulphuric Acid. Sulphuric Acid is controlled because it's an Explosives Precursor and is used in Acid Attacks, but I see it's sold as part of the Gateros Kit Copper Plating Kit. You might try Sodium BiSulphate instead. Lack of acid may be why you've not had good results so far.
• The power supply may need attention:
  • Plating is an electrochemical process needing just enough volts (about 2v) to get the amps flowing. If too many volts are applied, the excess will produce Hydrogen and Oxygen as a by-product. The bubbles are unwanted – they cause intermittent plating as they form, leaving a spongy copper deposit that falls off.
  • Too few amps means the process will take a long time – be patient.
  • Too many amps may damage the copper deposit due to heating, causing bits to fall off.
  • Duncan's warning about Switch-mode supplies is important. Being intelligent devices they're likely to shutdown or reduce output if they detect an abnormal load – like a jar fill of Copper Sulphate Solution! Older wall-warts contain a transformer and are much less fussy. Transformer wall-warts are distinctly heavy so look for one of them.
  • One way of losing excess volts if needed is to pass the current through a second jar of Copper Sulphate solution with two copper electrode. The current can also be controlled by altering how deep one of the electrodes is in this jar (to reduce bubbles).
• Other factor is the need to agitate the object being plated to remove bubbles and keep the electrolyte near the object fresh by stirring it.
• Sorry to rain on the parade, but the idea may not work. Plating depends in part on the metal being plated, in this case a mix of copper and a soldered joint. I don't know how well, or not, Copper will stick to solder. It's worth a try though!

Don't give up.

Dave

[Jouke van der VeenParticipant @joukevanderveen72935]

Gasoline, white spirit and IPA are good degreasers but after that a proper pickling step is still needed.

The copper sulphate can be dissolved in de-ionized water (water for car batteries) instead of destilled water.

Edited By Jouke van der Veen on 26/02/2020 17:43:06

[Chris VParticipant @chrisv]

Thank you to all above. Yes actually I found Gateros last night and after having a read thought I might as well give up! Not that I don't agree though, there is lots of info and only by persisting will I learn.

My original posting was where can I get this done ie recommendations, but I will try again. But I'm looking to spend very little initially to see if I can get a result. So I'm liking the idea of using a battery at least to start with.

Thank you for clarifying regarding Switch-mode. Its silver solder and the plating that did adhere seemed to colour the solder ok, so I'm hopeful regarding that.

I will have to wait till next week to get out to buy some de-ionized water before trying again. Thank you for explaining what its used for and where to obtain it!

I think it was on the Gateros site I read about a milky deposit which I had in places. This being an indicator that the solution is contaminated. If that's the case presumably starting a new mix ie binning the existing would be best?

I have more copper sheet than tube so that's helpful, as is knowing I can use a plastic vessel, this will enable the electrode to be further away as I have something more suitable.

Thank you again all for your input. I will try again next week.

Cheers

Chris.

[Jouke van der VeenParticipant @joukevanderveen72935]

Further current density is an important parameter. This means the amount of Amps/cm2 for the part to be plated. I do not know the amount. Using a battery or a different power supply, you should be able to regulate current. Conductivity of the plating liquid, determined by concentration and pH, plays a role in this.

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