Colchester Student Mk1 Won’t Start

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Thats not too bad Richard, I think I would just weld up the pits and then clean and dry it out thoroughly with a hot air gun and give it a couple of coats of two pack epoxy paint. The tool post you have is identical to mine, mine was very stiff too, so I stripped it………………it has never worked 100% since, but of course I dont know how well it worked before I got it! they are a pain to reassemble! Funny you should link to the above post from 2014, I actually commented in it!

Edited By Phil Whitley on 23/12/2019 15:35:36

[Richard Kirkman 1Participant @richardkirkman1]

Posted by Phil Whitley on 23/12/2019 15:33:52:

Thats not too bad Richard, I think I would just weld up the pits and then clean and dry it out thoroughly with a hot air gun and give it a couple of coats of two pack epoxy paint. The tool post you have is identical to mine, mine was very stiff too, so I stripped it………………it has never worked 100% since, but of course I dont know how well it worked before I got it! they are a pain to reassemble! Funny you should link to the above post from 2014, I actually commented in it!

Edited By Phil Whitley on 23/12/2019 15:35:36

Right well I have plenty of time to get that done since I spoke to machine mart today and they said that there's up to a 28 day wait for items to be looked at, so i'm probably not going to even get my money back or it repaired till around the 12th of Jan. I'm very doubtful that they'll repair it, but they might provide a new unit as the terms don't seem to mention refund anywhere. Who knows.

What's two pack epoxy paint? And, where's the cheapest place to get it?

Just found one of the small metal balls from the toolpost on the side of my workbench, so looks like the whole tool post is going to have to come to pieces again after all. I'll see if i can adjust it to make it work better. I'll make sure to take pictures this time.

Thanks

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Hi Richard,

If the unit is faulty and they can't even look at it for 28 days go in and request a refund Tell them it's obviously faulty or not fit for purpose. a 28 day wait for them to start looking at it is un reasonable. As a consumer in the UK you have rights. If it is less than 30 days since it was delivered or picked up you can demand a refund for faulty goods

Robert G8RPI.

[Richard Kirkman 1Participant @richardkirkman1]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 24/12/2019 07:16:08:

Hi Richard,

If the unit is faulty and they can't even look at it for 28 days go in and request a refund Tell them it's obviously faulty or not fit for purpose. a 28 day wait for them to start looking at it is un reasonable. As a consumer in the UK you have rights. If it is less than 30 days since it was delivered or picked up you can demand a refund for faulty goods

Robert G8RPI.

I don't think I explained that very well. It's 28 days that they'll get back to me in. Not 28 days before they look at it. So they have 28 days to look at it and decide if they think it's faulty.

And, I bought it in early September but only tried it out the week before last. It's still under warranty though

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Richard, there are various types of paint that are called "two pack", because they are a resin and hardener system where you add a set amount of hardener to paint just before use, then mix and apply by brush or spray, they self harden to a very tough water and oil proof finish. I would reccomend a two pack etch primer that will etch into and bond to the metal. Alternately, you could dry it out and give the whole tank a coat or two of glassfibre resin + hardener, which would seal any minor leaks and form a tank within a tank! Mine was not leaking so I just cleaned ot out and gave it a couple of coats of red lead like the original finish, it seems ok, but I dont know how it will last long term. Colchesters red lead from the early sixties is bound to be a lot better quality than my modern "Farm oxide" which has had all the good stuff removed for Elfin Safety reasons!

Edited By Phil Whitley on 24/12/2019 13:03:21

[Richard Kirkman 1Participant @richardkirkman1]

Posted by Phil Whitley on 24/12/2019 13:02:34:

Richard, there are various types of paint that are called "two pack", because they are a resin and hardener system where you add a set amount of hardener to paint just before use, then mix and apply by brush or spray, they self harden to a very tough water and oil proof finish. I would reccomend a two pack etch primer that will etch into and bond to the metal. Alternately, you could dry it out and give the whole tank a coat or two of glassfibre resin + hardener, which would seal any minor leaks and form a tank within a tank! Mine was not leaking so I just cleaned ot out and gave it a couple of coats of red lead like the original finish, it seems ok, but I dont know how it will last long term. Colchesters red lead from the early sixties is bound to be a lot better quality than my modern "Farm oxide" which has had all the good stuff removed for Elfin Safety reasons!

Edited By Phil Whitley on 24/12/2019 13:03:21

I'll look into getting some of that then

Borrowed the welder yesterday, just a small clarke one, but should be fine for this. Need to get to grips with the welder first. But unfortunately i'm not allowed in the garage on christmas, for some reason?

I hope everyone's having a good holiday

[Richard Kirkman 1Participant @richardkirkman1]

Happy new year everyone,

I've looked into the 2k paint and i'm struggling as I don't really know what I need?

I understand the 2 part bit, but then there are lots of people going on about basecoat, topcoat and other things?

Could someone spell out exactly what I need more simply? Or, are there other simpler paint that i can get in lower quantities, as I don't think i really need a litre and a half just to do the inside of a coolant tank?

Thanks

Edited By Richard Kirkman 1 on 01/01/2020 13:06:07

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Hi Richard, you can get this https://www.paragonpaints.co.uk/paragon-two-pack-etch-primer.html online, or try for a local supplier, there should be someone who sprays cars in darlington, or supplies the trade. Whateve you use, paint up above the "waterline, to keep the edge of the paint in fresh air! You can use this on any bare metal including aluminium, and it wont come off! Not allowed in the garage over Christmas? that is a clear denial of your fundamental human rights! Also seems to apply to me!

Phil.

Edited By Phil Whitley on 02/01/2020 17:08:21

[Richard Kirkman 1Participant @richardkirkman1]

I've been to smith and allen today, had a chat with the man behind the counter to see what he recommended. He thought some red oxide primer and then some tractol on top would be fine, so I'll just go with that as my dad can get me some tomorrow from his work.

I've welded up the coolant tank, so It shouldn't leak anymore, however it was such a horrible task, welding in such a small box. I cleaned it all and wire brushed it, but it didn't get all the way down into the holes. Still, they're all sealed up and the paint should help. Won't be uploading any pictures though as it was by far the worst welding i have ever done. I did made sure to stick a hoover down the coolant drain below the bed, so that helped get rid of some of the fumes.

I also found that the headstock is leaking through the top front handle (as well as the gear box gaskets and spindle gaskets), the one that varies the speed on the front of the lathe. In the manual it says that that is held tight with a leather washer 1 1/4 OD by 7/8 ID with 1/8 thick. So if the lathe is leaking out of there, it must need replacing. In anticipation i took some veg tan leather that I had around and I glued it to a block of wood on my wood lathe, then just turned it to size using calipers to check. So when I take the headstock to pieces to replace the gaskets, I'll replace that washer too.

Still waiting on machine mart, but I doubt i'll hear anything for another week, but I'm back to uni tomorrow so it doesn't matter till exams are over.

Once that's done with, I think i am quite tempted to do what the man in those videos Phil linked did, by getting a 3 phase motor and turning the static converter into a rotary one, getting true 3 phase, so that'll be another thing to get into.

Thanks

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Red lead is good, and tractol is oil resistant once it has had a week or so to cure, just make sure the tank is clean and dry before you start, as I said, get it hot eith a hot air gun to get rid of any moisture and oil residue. should be fine. I do tend to go a bit belt and braces on these jobs! Good luck with the exams, the country needs good engineers!!

Phil

[Richard Kirkman 1Participant @richardkirkman1]

Dad brought home the primer this morning (Sigmafast 20) So I gave the tank a good wire wheeling, hoovered it out, then gave it a wipe down, then used a heat gun on it like you reccomended, Then i've put a coat of primer on. It says it dries in 4 hours at 20 degrees, so who knows how long it'll take at 2 degrees in the garage. Anyway, I'm now back at uni, having painted this morning, my dad says he'll put on another coat of primer for me tomorrow, then let that dry and paint it with the tractol for me.

So hopefully by the time i'm home(14th), machine mart will have contacted me, the coolant tank will be painted and the gasket material will have arrived, so I'll be able to progress with everything in the 2 weeks before term starts again. I'll ring machine mart on the 13th as that will have been more than 28 days

Just watching the workshop rebuild video Phil, Interesting stuff!

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Hi,Happy New Year, Saw the start of this but not read all the posts. Have you tried the inverter on anything else ? even a spare motor ? 4 bits of wire and a 4pin plug ! AH, I've just checked my transwave converter and it uses a 5 pin plug ! This means you could have 3phase, neutral and earth. This would add a whole new dimension, not a problem but you do need to wire up right . Do not use neutral IF the original wiring was only 3 wire and earth.!!!

Does it run ? or is the Inverter dead for sure ?

Conversion to single phase may be possible and makes things a whole lot more simple. A 2.1Kw motor will run on 13a, just ! Though a dedicated circuit is better with a 32a mcb plus a contactor/overload cutout, this then give an easy route to a panic button.

Ah well, just a though. Good luck. Noel

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Read the data sheet for Sigmafast 20, good gear, that will do the job! I had a 5ltr of yellow zinc chromate primer which lasted for years, it is long gone, but some of the things I painted with it are still yellow and rust free after all these years!

[Richard Kirkman 1Participant @richardkirkman1]

3 coats of primer on and dry, Dad said he'd start the tractol today. It's looking decent enough, as the primer has started to cover the welds a bit! However they still looks awful so please ignore them

Still nothing from machine mart, I feel like i'm going to have to pester them, been 26 days now. Just got off the phone with them, supposedly there's a backlog from Christmas with a 20 day wait or something or other and that they were on day 13 so it could be another week from now. I did get their number so I can pester them instead so I might give them a ring too, but this is really frustrating me now as when i go home i'm going to be unable to even turn it on again.

I have found a woman selling a big transwave rotary converter, but its with 3 grands worth of woodworking equipment and she won't split it, so I've messaged her asking her to message me if she changes her mind, since a transwave rotary converter seems to be the dream and possibly worth the investment over a pc60. Still, I'm doubtful she'll get anyone interested in the other kit, so hopefully she'll split it eventually.

Gasket material has arrived at home, so I can make those while I wait. Also ordered some bright mild steel the same size as my cheap chinese carbide insert tooling, so hopefully i'll be able to weld onto the bottom of the tooling then grind it down to the correct centre height for my 4 way tool post.

I pestered the woman about the spare parts for the lathe, but she keeps just ignoring my messages so i think i'll have to replace the contactor and overloads with a modern one after all.

[Richard Kirkman 1Participant @richardkirkman1]

Exams finished and out of the way, back home again. Painting is slow in this temperature, one coat of tractol on, still tacky so i'll leave it longer before another coat. Possibly doing 3 coats as i'm not in a rush

Pestered machine mart again today, not my branch but the customer service team instead. Turns out the converter has been "repaired" yesterday and has had some parts replaced. The man on the phone said there was nothing on the sheet about the relay or the contactor being faulty, something to do with replacing the on switch. But, it's on the way back to the local branch for me to collect. I'll post the full repair sheet on here when I get it.

If it still doesn't work and is having issues then I'll either try to find a 3hp three phase motor and could turn it into a rotary converter as that should help, or I could try to take it back again.

Tracy is supposedly going to potentially send me some picture of the spare parts I've asked her for, so that will help with the contactor issues, if not I will look into the parts i need to get the safety features working properly. I also asked her for the topslide of the compound, the bit the tool post mounts to, so I have a spare to try and cut down to fit a QCTP in the future.

Plenty to do, and not long to do it!

[Richard Kirkman 1Participant @richardkirkman1]

Well, converter returned to me, it's had the on switch and ammeter replaced, everything else tested to be in working order and capacitors within tolerance. Plugged it all back in and its still making horrible noises. Filmed it, taken it back and received a refund this morning. They didn't like the noises it was making either, very quick to give a refund after showing the video.

So I shall be ordering a new pc60 to see if that helps. And it will be new so hopefully it'll just work for now, then I may convert to a rotary converter if i can find a 5hp three phase motor second hand cheaply enough

Not sure if anyone's still reading, but I'll continue to document my progress here.

Still need to replace the gaskets and replace the contactor, overloads and low voltage transformer

[mal webberParticipant @malwebber91786]

Still looking in on this thread Richard hopping you will get it sorted.

Mal

[john fletcher 1Participant @johnfletcher1]

After all the hassle you have had, wouldn't it be better and easier to get a 3 phase motor and inverter. I think you would get the pair for the price of the converter and have speed control. Several of my friends have bought Huanyang inverters for around £90, not one has ever complained about them being faulty and they got a motor from a club members on the cheap as well. The coolant pump was easy to alter so it runs from a 13 amp socket. John

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Hi Richard,

I can (sort of) understand why he has replaced those components, but they were obviously not the cause of the fault! no matter, you got a refund, lots will be still watching, and every time you or somebody else posts something in this thread, it goes to the top of the "new posts" search, which is what most people use when checking the forums, good luck with it!

Phil

Edited By Phil Whitley on 19/01/2020 14:50:16

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

[Richard Kirkman 1Participant @richardkirkman1]

Thanks Mal, I'm sure it can't be too much longer now!

Been on the phone with Tracy today about the spare parts. The lathe the parts are coming from has been completely canibalised in the past so i am unable to get the electrical panel from her, so I will need to find modern contactor and overloads and a suitable low voltage light transformer as i'd like to keep the lathe in original(ish) condition. She is still able to get me lots of the parts I need, like an original apron hand wheel and the motor cover at the back, so I will have a more complete lathe. Unfortunately they'll be bright blue, so looks like i'm going to have to re-paint the whole lathe at some point. Maybe a summer project as its bloody freezing out there now. She is also getting me a complete top slide from their lathe, so I will have the option to replace mine, or have a spare to modify for a QCTP

John, yes i could have chosen the VFD route, but I just didn't want to. I want it all to run off one plug, using the original controls. It might be easier, but it still isn't true three phase. Plus I don't want to be mounting VFDs to it and worrying about enclosures and things for it. Also, with a static converter, i'll be able to use it for future machines and even convert it into a rotary converter (which I hope to do at some point).

Thanks for the video Phil, was a good watch. I will speak to my electrical friend about getting the electrical panel sorted out soon enough. Then we can be sure that it isn't the lathe causing issues to the converter through poor connections or other things.

I've also been working on my cheap chinese carbide insert tooling. I've welded on some bar stock to the bottom and now its just around half a mm over center height, so I can grind it down slowly checking the height and getting it perfect without the use of shims. A lot of effort now, but should make tool changing much easier in the future! Just need to grind them all to size, get them to a decent surface finish then cold blue them. A nice little project to keep me busy.

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

I thought you wouldlike the video, seeing as it has Student roundheads in it! there are several old films about Cochester lathes on YouTube!

Phil

[Richard Kirkman 1Participant @richardkirkman1]

So, progress has been made

Pc60 just arrived so I've tried it out.

On the 1.5hp switch, after warming the lathe up a bit, it now runs in 400rpm and 600rpm, So definite progress

However, it will still not run in 1000rpm. It just sort of idles at 100rpm and doesn't get enough speed. It takes a few seconds to ramp up to 600rpm, but it does get there consistently now

As far as I know, static converters only give you around 2/3 of the power of the motor.

So, my thought is that the motor is actually only giving around 1hp of juice, which might not be enough to ever get into top speed.

But, when I went to see Phils lathe and had a feel of that, his chuck ran a lot smoother and more easily than mine, and I mean significantly so. But also, Phil mentioned that his bearings are shot and need replacing, but i don't know that that would make it run more easily.

So, my thoughts are that the motor isn't outting enough force in, or that the drive needs too much force for the motor due to some unfound friction issue (whether it be bearings or anything else)

What are peoples opinions on this?

I have found that the belts make a lot of noise and creak quite a bit, unsure how old they are. They seem too small for the lathe as when the motor is fully hinged up they are still tight. Also, one belt is more worn than the other, so travels more when you squeeze one, could this be an issue and should I replace them?

I have spoken to my electronics friend and i am trying to replace the contactor, overloads and lighting transformer, but we just need to find the correct components.

Thanks everyone

[Richard Kirkman 1Participant @richardkirkman1]

More about the belts, I think they're definitely too small for the machine. Without the belts on the machine, it seems to run much more easily. for example, with the belts on and attached to the motor, I cannot turn the lathe chuck no matter how much effort I put in, On 52 rpm that is. But, when the belts are off, i can turn it with a little effort. Especially on 1000rpm, it's definitely not free spinning, but it

Also, I'm not sure as i don't have any real way to test it, but it feels a bit easier to turn the chuck

It feels like a big enough difference that the belts are causing too much force on the shaft. They have a bit of damage on them too.

Belts are currently 88cm long. So i've just ordered new belts 1m long to allow the hinge some movement so i can actually tension the belt properly ( I hope). And if not, new belts can't do any harm. Ordered from rs components so they should be here asap

[mal webberParticipant @malwebber91786]

Just a thought Richard cant you but one of the gear knobs in between gears like giving you a neutral and spin the chuck by hand so your just checking headstock for free turning.

Mal.

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