Chinese Lathe Accessories.

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

Ketan,

Your response is from the point of view of a supplier and if I may say so, there is a lot of fog there. I do not accept that suppliers should send out willy nilly parts that are not fit for purpose.

If you are serious, why don`t you answer the question that I posed several postings ago. What would you do if a customer sent back an item that was minus 20 thou on an important dimension?

Alan

Edited By alan smith 6 on 15/12/2012 17:39:24

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by alan smith 6 on 15/12/2012 16:41:09:

Wow, the thread seems to have expanded into a east versus west sounding board.

I notice that I have had no replies regarding the minus 24 thou component so that I can safely say that nobody condones this kind of product.

It`s John again with his pile of gear blanks, I imagine that these are an order from Myford, so no wonder you are being disruptive to the thread. It`s your bread and butter on the line! Please inform us what tolerances you are working to on the 5/8 bores. i hope it`s not the same as the parts that I received! You have not answered the questions that I put to you, Why not?

Terry, do you think that a minus 20 thou on a gear bore diameter is ok? Lucky for RDG that they have customers like you. No metaphors OK.

The problem is that while I`m writing a post, 4or 5 others are in the pipeline, which sometimes makes what I am saying out out of context.

Nigel has made a very important point, we seem to be learning a lot from this thread.

Alan

Edited By alan smith 6 on 15/12/2012 16:48:07

Edited By alan smith 6 on 15/12/2012 16:49:48

Because I have other things to do besides answer your assumptions which is how this thread started.

I will reply later in my time.

Sent from my Ipram

[graham howeParticipant @grahamhowe83128]

I rarely post comments on this forum but would like to give my experience of made in China products. I should add that I served a student apprenticeship at Crewe Locomotive works way back in 1961 and gained a great insight into 'British' made excellance and brilliant skilled tradesmen. Also at that time I bought a new Ml7 lathe replacing a treadle drive Drummond. The Myford as standard came with no motor no accesories, no electrical safety and required me to take out a 2 year repayment loan. These days I would class this as 'not fit for purpose' unless worked by hand rotation.

Some years ago I wanted a set of R8 collets for my Chinese mill but was very concerned about quality. I contacted the supplier who told me they were sourced from another UK well known supplier of imports (where the mill came from) but justified an additional premium because every collet was checked and any failures returned. So at great risk I bought a complete set and as he assured me they were top quality and have never failed in any respect but classed as economy grade.

Even more recently, last year, I bought a Chinese BH600G lathe from Warco. I simply wanted a larger lathe but one not too big and one which would reduce my frustrations regarding the 'old' design aspects of the ML7 when making bits. Of course I could have opted to buy a used British lathe but having only 1 hour available (I don't live in UK) in which to make a judgement I preferred to buy a new Chinese lathe. A used Harrison or Colchester would be vastly superior design and fitting but only if it was not worn and lets face it most are bound to be worn or damaged (ex school) ito some degree and this presented a major potential dillema – repairs and parts even if available cost more than the BH600G. Even a new gearbox for the ML7 cost as much but it is magnificently made but performs the same function. The BH600G is a very simple lathe, belt drive with backgear but has relatively modern specifcation eg. spindle bore 36mm, induction hardened bed, low voltage control safety etc often missing on used Myford stock..

The BH600G lathe as delivered was 'fit for purpose' but not as 'fit' as I liked and so I checked most of it and re-fitted parts to a higher standard. This took some time to carry out using old skills learnt but I fully expected this as they had to keep the cost down. Should parts need replacing, even if no longer available, then they are not over difficult to repair or remake with a few exceptions. Now having used the lathe quite a bit I can make a fair and honest comparison to the ML7 and surprisingly the BH600G wins in many areas. I guess the S7 made some major advances but it was still developed from an old design and costing a lot more I would expect that the fit and finish to be superior. Even the latest model still has a smaller bore by comparison! It is easy to see why the Myford is so costly and now no longer, well machined and expertly hand fitted but not more accurate.

It is simply wrong to make judgements purely based on the place of manufacture but what is right is to judge the British suppliers who make often outrageous claims about the imported products they sell and show little concern about quality, standards or reputation. It is these British suppliers that should be judged after all they are responsible for the product they sell and know exactly the true cost and value but they are all about making a profit at the buyers expense. So don't simply blame the Chinese if you buy rubbish blame the British suupplier who had the audacity to sell it with wrong or no stated specifications. It is noticeable how many say 'compatible' but rarely check parts for fit and imo are themselves unfit for purpose!

Finally, in defence of Chinese manufacturing, it is truly an outstanding achievement that virtually all high volume computer hardare products are so incredibly reliable but then again the buyers demand that in order to survive on marginal profits. As someone said in an earlier thread the Chinese can and do make very high standard products but these are at a considerably higher retail cost but question who states the cost of the products we see complaints about.

[jim bothParticipant @jimboth37830]

chinese engineering is massive! their areospace market is huge. many british companies now have companies in china, purley for lower cost.

the vast majority of tooling i have bought is well made, some of it i struggle to believe can be sold at such a low price.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by alan smith 6 on 15/12/2012 17:37:08:

Ketan,

Your response is from the point of view of a supplier and if I may say so, there is a lot of fog there. I do not accept that suppliers should send out willy nilly parts that are not fit for purpose.

If you are serious, why don`t you answer the question that I posed several postings ago. What would you do if a customer sent back an item that was minus 20 thou on an important dimension?

Alan

Edited By alan smith 6 on 15/12/2012 17:39:24

Fog? really? I agree that suppliers should not send out not fit for purpose parts willy nilly. Most suppliers do not do this deliberately. This is where I say that suppliers are human too. So I fail to see what is foggy about this. ARC operates a three strike rule. If ARC receives the same complaint three times in a row in a short period of time, we remove the lot from sale and check what exactly is the problem.

Your specific question in relation to RDG is not strictly for me to answer. It is clearly a problem between you and RDG. I do not know the said part specifically, and I do not know how critical the said dimension was. Earlier, I just clarified that it is essential to be clear about origin, along with my reasons why.

With reference to ARC, if the said item was 20 thou out on an important and critical dimension, ARC would refund the cost of the item plus all related U.K. carriage. This would only be done after checking with our qualified engineer. If a corrected part was available for replacement, ARC would offer this too. Both options would be presented to the customer, for the customer to decide what they want to do.

If ARC failed to agree with the customers observation with reference to 'not fit for purpose', ARC would offer the customer a refund for the part, excluding cost of related carriage. If the customer fails to agree, they have the option of raising the issue further though what ever channel legal or otherwise, as they feel appropriate, including talking about it on forums such as this.

Each problem is dealt with on a case by case basis. There is no 'one answer' to every problem, and the customer is not always right. ARC does not prescribe to this rule.

I am sure that most suppliers will go down a similar route.

I have a similar problem at present with a customer, relating to blank back plates we sell. Like Chris at RDG told you (and you did not believe), I told the customer that this was the first time I have come across this complaint, so I am a little puzzled. He gave me the impression that he could not believe me, so before he could say any more, I invited him to come and see my stock record for himself, which would show any sign of return with reasons, which we log in our system, which he declined. As it happens, we did not have any returns. Our backplates are from steel rod/stock and not cast iron. The customer suggested that there were hard spots in the backplates. ARC said that this was difficult to believe as we have not had any returns. He said that he had spoken to RDG and they told him that they had stopped selling steel backplates because there were hard spots in them, and they sold cast iron backplates instead which were better. Now, what should I believe?. It is my opinion that the customer may have work hardened the material during turning, resulting in his inability to drill the plate there after. However, what gave him the idea that there were hard spots in our backplate? Was it his conversation with RDG? So, do I have RDG to thank for planting this in his brain?

Is the backplate not fit for purpose or is the customer not doing the right thing – fit for purpose?. It is dangerous to jump to any conclusions. We are awaiting return of the backplates to check for ourselves, and then we will make our own decisions.

Ketan at ARC.

Edited By Ketan Swali on 15/12/2012 19:15:06

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

John Stevenson is suddenly speechless when confronted with simple questions. I hope that he will reply as he promises, otherwise we can just ignore his posts as hype.

No Reply from Terry, Likewise.

Ketan, This was a hypothetical question no reference to RDC. You have not answered the question correctly, I will reveal all once those other foggers have deigned to answer the same question, if they ever do!

Alan

Ps, Surely backplates should be made from cast Iron!

Edited By alan smith 6 on 15/12/2012 19:20:23

Edited By alan smith 6 on 15/12/2012 19:26:10

[Donald WittmannParticipant @donaldwittmann92536]

Alan,

I can't guarantee which threads a certain JS will not reply to but ,I can guatantee which ones he WILL and that is any that "knocks Chinese machines" Also Alan many chucks have steel backplates

Rohm offer steel ones in addition to cast iron ,as do Forkhardt and a few others.

Donald.

Edited By David Clark 1 on 16/12/2012 09:39:10

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Alan,

I've refrained from comment on this thread so far. I have seen lot of polite responses, albeit some of them possibly contradictory or at least ambiguous, but none deliberately misleading.

You seem to be going to great lengths to cast aspersions on anyone who does not supply the mysterious answer you appear to know already but want someone else to tell you.

Personally, I'm surprised how long some posters have tolerated your brusque, if not rude, reactions to their replies.

I think you ought to obey one of the first rules of internet ettiquette – assume that every response is offered in good faith unless you have a genuine reason to belive otherwise.

Neil

P.S. What is wrong with using a steel backplate? The lathe spindle is steel and generally speaking higher quality chucks are steel rather than cast iron (not least because they are safer at high speeds).

P.P.S. There is an IGNORE MEMBER button just below here, if you find my reaction to your postings too much to bear.

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Hear Hear! Neil

Ian

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, these arguments about where in the world parts are made reminds me of people as far back as the 70's/80's saying that they would never buy computers or Hi-Fi's made in Japan, not realising that many, if not the majority of the electronic components inside came from Japan, where ever the finished items were made.

I have often bought items from the likes of RDG and have not found any justifiable cause to say that they are "not fit for purpose". I have bought items from so called British manufacturers (not model engineering items) and they have been rubbish IMO.

I too have a secondhand Boxford BUD, which was used in industry, it's not perfect but it is very good. I also have a secondhand Warco 220 lathe which is also very good. I have two milling machines from Chester, one of which is a Cobra and which I believe are excellent value for the money.

Also, there is nothing wrong with steel backplates, I have one from RDG and found no hard spots and I've made my own from a suitable steel blank. One thing for sure if I were to have a large diameter one running at high speed, I would not want it to be made of cast iron as it probably would not stand the stresses on it.

One thing I feel people fail to realise is that you cannot compare anything that is made for a domestic market with something intended for industrial use, the build quality is different and so is the price.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 15/12/2012 20:11:30

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

The maessage below came into my inbox a couple of minutes ago. It has not appeared in the thread so I thought I had better put it here to clear any misunderstandings.

In

A new posting has been made on the thread Chinese Lathe Accessories..

Posting:

John Stevenson is suddenly speechless when confronted with simple questions. I hope that he will reply as he promises, otherwise we can just ignore his posts as hype.

No Reply from Terry, Likewise.

No reply from Ketan, Likewise.

Alan

Posted By alan smith 6 on 15/12/2012 19:12:28.

Read the thread online

To stop receiving updates when new postings are added to this thread, go to your Member Bookmarks page and remove the bookmark.

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

Neil & ian

Sorry if I seem to be rather brusque but I`m used to getting to the bottom of things and there are contributers such as JS that talk a lot but don`t make a lot of sense and dilute what should be a simple exercise in gathering information.

People make remarks but when asked a specific question, they are sometimes not keen to answer.

Let me ask you the same hypothetical question that I asked the others.

What would your reaction be if you were supplied with parts that were minus 24 thou on a critical diameter. If you haven`t read the thread then you can always go back to the beginning.

You may be sensitive to my style but there are other more hard skinned contributors that this is the norm for.

The button is there just press it!

Alan

Edited By alan smith 6 on 15/12/2012 20:19:04

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by alan smith 6 on 15/12/2012 19:12:28:

John Stevenson is suddenly speechless when confronted with simple questions. I hope that he will reply as he promises, otherwise we can just ignore his posts as hype.

Alan

I have just this minute walked in.

I am certainly not here at your beck and call, some of us have lives to lead, not sit on a computer whinging about a twopenny item.

I will reply AT MY CONVIENIANCE – not yours.

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Mr Smith

I think it is you that should read the forum, all of it!

If your really lucky you might find one or two posts where members have made disparaging remarks about other contributors. Some figure very close to 100% represents good manners.

What I am trying to say is that its you that is the odd one out here.

Ian

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

JS

Please get your spelling right, it upsets me.

Oan

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by alan smith 6 on 15/12/2012 19:12:28:

John Stevenson is suddenly speechless when confronted with simple questions. I hope that he will reply as he promises, otherwise we can just ignore his posts as hype.

No Reply from Terry, Likewise.

Ketan, This was a hypothetical question no reference to RDC. You have not answered the question correctly, I will reveal all once those other foggers have deigned to answer the same question, if they ever do!

Alan

Ps, Surely backplates should be made from cast Iron!

Edited By alan smith 6 on 15/12/2012 19:20:23

Edited By alan smith 6 on 15/12/2012 19:26:10

Haha,

I can see you are enjoying this . I was late with my above reply as I was having dinner.

Anyway, cant speak for JS or Terry.

Ketan at ARC.

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Oan, I thought it wa spelt Ian

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Posted by KWIL on 15/12/2012 20:40:36:

Oan, I thought it wa spelt Ian

 

Doh!

I can't get on with SCAYT so I always read a post before submitting. Didn't think to read my name because I thought I knew what it was.

IAN

 

'wa' ???

Edited By Ian Phillips on 15/12/2012 20:47:10

Edited By Ian Phillips on 15/12/2012 20:47:39

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Posted by alan smith 6 on 15/12/2012 20:15:05:

Let me ask you the same hypothetical question that I asked the others.

What would your reaction be if you were supplied with parts that were minus 24 thou on a critical diameter.

I hope it would be rationale, proportionat and polite.

Neil

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

Ian,

Your replies to the thread are not so polite as I thought they would be according to your initial post.

As I`ve said before, if you have nothing positive to contribute, then don`t bother.

Neil,

You did not answer my question regarding the part not fit for purpose. May I ask are you a lawyer?

The same goes for you. Don`t be a time waster!

Alan

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Mr Smith

<Your replies to the thread are not so polite as I thought they would be according to your initial post.>

But that was before you came out with,

<   JS that talk a lot but don`t make a lot of sense and dilute what should be a simple exercise in gathering information.>

I dont know JS and have never met him. I do read his posts because they are always interesting, accurate and appear to come from someone with a lot of knowledge, experience, and common sense.

Ian

Edited By Ian Phillips on 15/12/2012 21:24:05

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

Ian,

I`m referring to your response to KWIL and your comments about JS`s spelling. that is unworthy of you

Alan

Edited By alan smith 6 on 15/12/2012 21:35:23

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Alan,

The reason I didn't answer directly was because everyone else who has tried, has been rebuked.

The studs were on the small side, the gears wobbled. Without seeing for myself I do not know if I would have rejected them. You don't state the absolute size and you haven't said what would be an acceptable range of tolerance.

You got replacements. You copmplain they were slightly oversize, but don't say whether or not they worked.

I do find it surprising that you felt 1/4 of a thou over nominal was unacceptable. Are you aware that it is normal for parts to be made to a tolerance, not dead to size?

Personally, if I was unhappy and was told that it was OK, but on pressing my case was given replacements I would feel I had been dealt with fairly.

Neil

[SiddleyParticipant @siddley]

This is getting to be like that famous TV series about Outlaw ME's – what's it called, the Sons Of Metrology ?

( the above comment may not make sense, if it doesn't, don't worry about it )

It's helped me decide who is getting the cash I have set aside for tooling in the new year though, I'll keep that to myself though…

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

OK now at my convenience.

Replies are all relating to Alan's remarks and responses, all others are ignored.

For a start in post #1 the heading was Chinese Lathe Accessories. Supplier selling items not fit for purpose.

In post #2 I queried this after reading the post as all the pattern parts sold by RDG are Indian in origin – not Chinese.

Your reply in post #3 John, Sorry about the confusion! The Chinese made part was Myford compatible although the advert did not actually say this, still highlighted this as Chinese. So you are still labouring under an assumption

In post #9 you are still harping on about the Chinese and the assumption carries on.

Then post # 13 the have the gall to say "Once the existing stock of new Myford parts has run out, then pattern parts will appear on the scene."
How can you make these assumptions ? Do you own stock in RDG / Myford and are privy to their board meeting minutes ?

Later in post #19 I introduced the Reliant Robin as a light heated dig at tight fisted model engineers who always buy cheap, probably everybody except you got the dig, for you it was derailing a personal crusade.

Then you have a dig at me, basically calling me a troll because I don't have any photo's hosted on the ME forum

So in post #20 I supplied a photo link to 1,131 photos, not a measly 60, which you decided to ignore.

Post #33 berates me for posting about the plastic pig out of context which proves you didn't get the connection.

Moving on to post #38 you cast aspersion of Derek's experience and equipment which however back fired on you because again you are assuming and Derek proved you woefully wrong

Replying to Derek in post #41 I you say you wasn't able to follow the argument but it looked clear enough to me , he countered everything you said and more just wasn't to your liking.

Then to cap it all in post #44 you start cracking on about me not having any photo's listed again but that sadly backfired as you hadn't read the reply in post #20.

In post #57 Ketan's made a reply about India, trading operations and goods, not exactly relevant to me but remember this post, very, very clear and concise post.

In post #59 Alan now turned to me and asked asked what I would do about part? This post was timed at 2:50 but I didn't read it until much later as I was out leading a normal life.

Had to split this into two posted because of the length.

[Author]

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