Chester or Warco.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

I think that this thread will meander on. All the old chestnuts will be dug up and aired once again!

I think that a central question is "Should suppliers of ANY description, use their customers as their QC department, or should they make an attempt to check out their machines BEFORE they ship them? This applies to second hand machine dealers and to importers of Far Eastern machines.

I am guilty, as are many others, by recounting horror stories. We all know about the problems with any new or second hand machines. At the end of the day, it is the supplier who has the responsibility of making sure that goods are fit for purpose.

Is it really too much to ask of a supplier to actually use the machine for a short test drive before shipping? if this were done then it would stop dead, a lot of the complaints we get here on the forum.

Andrew.

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Andrew it is a question of economics, to test drive every machine would mean extra man hours dedicated to that task, the suppliers we are criticising are importing and selling machines which they have to do competitively, any extra operations will inevetiably add to their costs, they have rightly or wrongly calculated that the customer wants a rock bottom price which would preclude paying for extra operations. Is the customer therefore part of the problem?

Dave

[ChrisBParticipant @chrisb35596]

Dave there are suppliers which claim to have tested their machines prior to delivery, in my case, as the machines were for export I made sure they actually did test them….that said the lathe came dead on delivery – a loose wire – did they really check it, did the wire come loose during transport? Who knows, at least customer service was good, price was good and machine delivers what I expect out of it…

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

What about the case where the chap received a machine from Chester having supposedly been checked over by their “chief engineer” only to find it was poorly assembled and rusty!

They just tell lies. Telling you what you want to hear. There’s no intention to improve quality because they can keep knocking the same rubbish out because amateur users will just put up with it. Pay thousands to then start injecting epoxy into things…

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Maybe we should contemplate the state of the hobby if China did not exist. I suspect that most of us would be seriously underquipped unless we had very deep pockets or/and have large workshops. There must be few typical workshops these days that don't own some sort of a mill to compliment their lathe, something that was rare in days gone by. Sure not much of what comes out of China aimed at the hobby end of the market is anything like a top class toolroom machine but much of the model making in days gone by was achieved on worn out and largely inadequate machines. Chinese imports have transformed what most of us can aspire to and as long as the importers offer proper after sales service to remedy anything that slips through the net I feel we should be pleased with our situation.

regards Martin

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Of course that view is correct. But there is no way that after turning over say a thousand pounds you should then be expected to repair your purchase. NO WAY.

China are perfectly capable of manufacturing well made good quality items. The importers in the UK just can’t be bothered to do leg work needed to improve things.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Carl Wilson 4 on 21/11/2017 11:24:43:
. Pay thousands to then start injecting epoxy into things…

But most hobbiests don't want to spend tens of thousands on a more ridgid new industrial machine . They make the choice of a cheaper machine and is it the makers fault if they then find it won't take the same heavy cuts that an industrial one would without flexing.

All these comments are based on what is available from Chesterhobbystore, there is a clue in the name. If you want industrial rigidity get your wallet out and visit their industrial site not the hobby one.

 

"China are perfectly capable of manufacturing well made good quality items"

Yes agreed but again most hobby users dont want to pay £20,000 for the far eastern Hardinge clones

Edited By JasonB on 21/11/2017 11:39:05

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

John Ruskin may, or may not, have actually said it … but this is commonly attributed to him:

[quote]

There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey.

[/quote]

.

MichaelG.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law_of_business_balance

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 21/11/2017 11:54:57

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 21/11/2017 08:57:08:

Posted by Raymond Anderson on 21/11/2017 08:22:33:

…

…

How does the 'quality control' of current supply compare with that of 2001 ?

…

MichaelG.

We don't really know. On average I think it's fairly obvious there's been considerable improvement since Far Eastern machines first appeared in the 1970s. Early magazine reviews are all negative. Today much of the comment reports minor problems rather than major ones, though major issues do still occur.

The centre of production is continually changing. It's moved from Taiwan to mainland China who are undergoing an Industrial Revolution. Their industrial base started primitive and is evolving rapidly. At the moment it's a mix of high-end and low-end production methods not dissimilar to the UK in 1950. (Shipyards doing welding next to shipyards using rivets, modern steel works next to a Victorian Iron Foundry, Jet Aircraft being built by men driving Austin 7s etc.) China faces competition from countries like India who have a similar mix of world-class and primitive engineering.

Making hobby lathes is highly competitive and profits low. It must be very tempting to use 'nearly good enough' castings rather than rejecting them and to not slow production by fixing small faults. On the other hand machine surfaces are accurately made with grinding machines. Early problems with motors, bearings and electronics are mostly solved. Gears and other components are competent rather than polished. However, lathes appear to be assembled in a hurry with minimal attention to cosmetic details. The end result is a mixture of mostly reasonable lathes with some exceptional examples, and some bad. For industrial use, the quality process would reject the bad outright and uplift the reasonable to a specification, paying considerable attention to the details. This is expensive!

I don't think enough lathes are made to justify the quality techniques used to make cars and electronics.

Once hobby lathes are finished, I guess 3 things happen:

• The rejects are sold off locally. It's possible that that these end up on ebay or similar. The risk of getting a dud from an unknown source is higher.
• Some Western outlets pay a premium or otherwise apply leverage to get the best examples for their customers. (Based on fewer moans about them I guess that ArcEuroTrade, Warco, Axminster and Grizzly at least do this to some degree, perhaps also checking a little more carefully before shipping. It doesn't guarantee complete satisfaction, but it lifts them above the average.)
• Other outlets may simply pass on reasonable examples, perhaps after a superficial inspection before shipping. Most of these will be OK, but the risk of getting a clunker will be higher. Your protection is that they will change it.

Customer service is another variable. Company policy might be to resist all but the most justified complaints, or it might be to respond positively even to nitwits and time-wasters. Policies and attitudes to customers change over time and even the best run organisations drop the ball on a bad day. You might ring up when most of the staff are off-sick and the untrained temp has a filthy headache! And there's a reason why most firms don't allow engineers to talk to customers.

Generally I think quality tends to rise, but there are many reasons why it's not universal. For example, as the pound has lost value in recent times, and because UK vendors have to keep prices low, there's likely downward pressure on quality at the moment unless the Chinese have improved productivity to compensate.

I'm guessing really. We would know more if everybody shared their experiences good and bad in a standard form, but we don't. It would also be interesting to be a fly on the wall at, say, ArcEuroTrade to see how Ketan does business and to visit his Chinese suppliers and their facilities. I'd expect most of what goes on behind the scenes to be slick, a fair bit challenging, and some of it heartbreaking. The world's like that.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 21/11/2017 12:00:10

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 21/11/2017 11:58:06:

I'd expect most of what goes on behind the scenes to be slick, a fair bit challenging, and some of it heartbreaking. The world's like that.

Dave

Hell Dave, never mind lathes, you've just summed up the last two years of my life!

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 21/11/2017 08:57:08:

Posted by Raymond Anderson on 21/11/2017 08:22:33:

… The Warco Lathe [ GH750 ] now discontinued was bought new in circa 2001and has been a superb buy <etc.>

.

I have never bought a machine from either of these suppliers, but Raymond's post prompts an intriguing question:

How does the 'quality control' of current supply compare with that of 2001 ?

MichaelG.

A good question.

As you might expect I do get the opportunity to discuss this frankly with several of the main suppliers.

My greatest familiarity is with 7 x 10/12/14/16 mini lathes and the QC on these has got much better and the basic spec has considerably improved with brushless DC motors, increased centre distances, more reliable electronics, lever tailstocks and many detail improvements such as leadscrew swarf guards and down to little things like rubber leadscrew grommets to stop swarf getting inside the control box.

My understanding is that although the bulk of machines are sold in the USA, the sheer size of the market there and possibly lower expectations mean a few disgruntled customers have less impact than in the UK (I have been told). Most of the improvements have resulted from the input of the main UK distributors – who have agents in China/India and regularly go over to see the manufacturers. I know some of my own feedback on machines has gone back to a manufacturer and in at least one case resulted in a new accessory.

I would certainly assert that a 2017 top-spec mini lathe is a more capable and better made/accurate machine than mine which was made in 1998. One almost invisible change is that the first batches (including mine) faced slightly convex, something that was picked and corrected early on as the machines became more popular.

If you look on this forum for early reviews of the SC4-510 from Arc, you will see they originally decided against stocking it, one of the issues being a noisy headstock, arguably caused by poor cleaning/running in of the internal gears. My machine, a current one, does not suffer from this issue at all. In my view there clearly is incremental improvement, largely driven by the desire of the main importers to stay ahead of the smaller ones and also their wish to avoid problems like the one that started this thread. I am sure that the manufacturer will get to see that headstock and get some strong feedback on it.

Neil

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 21/11/2017 11:58:06:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 21/11/2017 08:57:08:

Posted by Raymond Anderson on 21/11/2017 08:22:33:

…

…

How does the 'quality control' of current supply compare with that of 2001 ?

…

MichaelG.

Making hobby lathes is highly competitive and profits low. It must be very tempting to use 'nearly good enough' castings rather than rejecting them and to not slow production by fixing small faults.

I don't think enough lathes are made to justify the quality techniques used to make cars and electronics.

Dave

You've just summed up perfectly the same culture that exists in quality control the world over, if the customer is willing to pay high enough, then appropriate measures will be taken.

Ironically my experience as a quality Inspector was for making car and electronic components here in the U.K,

You complain that the parts aren't meeting the grade, and unless they're either complaining or paying dear enough for it, it's just shrugged off by the management or shipped out on a prayer that they wont notice it.

One of the applications was for making roller bearings that went into winches, that needed a relatively high surface finish tolerance (I think around 0.15 Ra), you could go three times over that upper limit before anyone even bothered changing the tool.

It's precisely because it's so tempting to just say it'll be okay, when it's so close. The production manager is essentially guessing what the designer or end user thinks is important to them.

Its not a case of what nationality the company belongs to, it's more a case of whether a company has taken quality control seriously, even harder to get them to care when the customer doesn't pay for it.

Michael W

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Folks may be interested in this album of pictures sent to me from China by John Stevenson a few years ago when he and Ketan were on one of their factory visits. As you can see it's a typical back-alley sweatshop…

John Stevenson in China

Neil

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Posted by JasonB on 21/11/2017 08:06:04:

Posted by Chris Trice on 21/11/2017 01:22:24:

And yet more numerous stories that make me buy good British second hand. I wonder if Myford, Boxford, Harrison, Colchester etc had this many returns in their day? I'd be interested to hear from either Chester or Warco what proportion of machines lead to "customer feedback" and what happens to these returned machines. I hope they go back to China but I have my doubts.

Bit hard to compare the two. If you pay hobby machine prices you would be a fool to think you are getting industrial quality. Go and have a look at 600Group site and look at the price of a new M300 or 10XX Boxford and compare that with a 12×30 Warco/Chester. Even a new Myford will set you back £10k from RDG so can't compare that with a similar capacity 7x ?? minilathe.

You pay your money and you take your choice Would you expect a Rolls to be the same quality as a Dacia Duster?

I'm not comparing against brand new British made. I'm comparing by price i.e. new eastern versus second hand branded. For example, if I had fifteen hundred to buy a milling machine, I'd go look at some second hand branded machines and see the actual machine I was buying rather than "trusting" what came in the crate from the cheap end of the spectrum. You can buy serviceable second hand Boxford lathes for £800 easily. You can buy later high spec Boxford lathes secondhand for £1,500. Like cars, it's not necessarily the age but the mileage and when you come to resell, they usually hold their value. But that's not the only aspect of this. It's about buying a cheap new far eastern lathe and then every week or so, a bolt breaks or a thread strips or the electrics pack up. Again, it's not that all of them are like that but that too many of them are like that.

Edited By Chris Trice on 21/11/2017 13:44:01

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/11/2017 13:22:20:

Folks may be interested in this album of pictures sent to me from China by John Stevenson a few years ago when he and Ketan were on one of their factory visits. As you can see it's a typical back-alley sweatshop…

John Stevenson in China

Neil

Thoughtful of John to include a photo of the mode of transport you and he used to get there

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

In respect of buying secondhand far eastern lathes, in my case, not a hope. I simply don't trust that the electronic speed control, even if it's working at the time of sale, isn't going to go phut six months later because there are too many stories of this happening. The mistrust is added to by asking yourself why the seller is selling it since the normal action of caution has you considering all the worst case scenarios and it's not difficult, give the stories on this forum, to imagine that it's been a problem machine which the seller is obviously not going to indicate. I liken it to buying a car. Do you buy one you feel reasonably confident is going to drive you around reliably or do you buy one with a reputation for breaking down? Not all cars with a bad reputation break down but do you take the risk?

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

And to stretch the comparison further.. "if you buy cheap, you can't expect a car to be as reliable". Well, maybe not as reliable long term BUT I don't expect a wheel to drop off in the first week. Even if the dealer changes the car, you're faith in the product is a bit tarnished and you lose the joy and happiness you would otherwise have with your new purchase. I enjoy the buzz I get from buying something. If it turns to disappointment, I lose interest.

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

I can understand why Jason and the other mods on here would want to defend Chester and the rest. Every copy of ME and MEW has a full page advert on the back for them, and they advertise on here too. So, I get it.

I’m not comparing Chester’s or anyone elses hobby machine output with their more expensive industrial offerings.

I simply believe that the hobby machines they sell should be fit for purpose, regardless of how much money is spent on them.

Just because people aren’t shelling out multiple thousands for toolroom quality machines does not give the importers a license to rip people off by sending them junk. Which is exactly what they are doing.

Edited By Carl Wilson 4 on 21/11/2017 14:22:49

[DeanoParticipant @deano]

Defend them all you like, I get also that adverts pay the bills. However, it’s a bit of a cheek when so many people have had the same problems to stick up for a company that is quite frankly ripping people off. Respect the reader, without him or her, you have nothing to advertise in.

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

Just to clarify a post I made in this thread, [ in case some picked me up wrong ] When I used epoxy injection on the Chester LUX it was NOT to repair any fault, it was only as an improvement. Worked fine enough right from the crate [ with the usual cleaning and adjusting of gibs]. Only last year did I decide to strip it down and "improve " the interface twixt head / column and column / base. Apologies for any confusion.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Carl / Rockets both Neil and myself bought far eastern machines long before this forum ever existed we base our comments on actually owning and using them. I'm not even on the payroll so have no obligation to defend or otherwise

My X3 has run fine out of the box since 2007 and the Warco since about 2009 and I think Neil mentioned earlier his minilathe was 1998 well before either of us was involved with ME.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Forty years ago we worked on the simple rule of tens, where process mistakes were costed. If rectified for ten pounds at the design stage, it would cost a hundred if the mistake was found at the production stage, but a thousand if only found when installing. That same problem would typically have cost ten thousand pounds if the subsequent fault required fixing when the process was commissioned. Multiply that by another factor of ten if the failure stopped the process when in full production!

Same principle here. If the quality control checks discarded 'out of spec' parts at the manufacturing stage, the final product would be in spec. Unfortunately this is clearly not occurring. Likely what happens is that selected high spec parts are directed to the product line of those that pay for high quality machines – the lesser spec ones are used for the cheaper lines. Guess what? The dregs are the cheapest!

I once worked for a company that guaranteed a 'very-close-to-zero' failure rate for their products, which were assembled using parts made in the UK and some chinese made component parts. After a couple containers worth of components were simply returned to china, after QC checks in the UK found them to have a higher failure rate than demanded, the chinese suppliers realised their checks needed to be up to the job. They were paid to send only in-spec components, so only in-spec component deliveries were acce

pted.

 

Who buys the dregs? You decide, as the buyer – you choose to buy the cheaper or more expensive version of the same type of machine.

 

 

 

Loose casting sand inside engine components used to be a particular problem with some Lister clones made in India, for instance. Not good!  Other defects included occlusions in flywheel castings, filled with body filler and painted over. Things which would never have been acceptable when those same engines were made by Lister in the UK.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited By not done it yet on 21/11/2017 16:46:50

[Mark P.Participant @markp]

Don’t know about Chester but I can’t fault WARCO had 3 machines from them and their aftersales service is great.
Mark P.

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Posted by Carl Wilson 4 on 21/11/2017 14:21:29:
I can understand why Jason and the other mods on here would want to defend Chester and the rest. Every copy of ME and MEW has a full page advert on the back for them, and they advertise on here too. So, I get it.

I'm not comparing Chester's or anyone elses hobby machine output with their more expensive industrial offerings.

I simply believe that the hobby machines they sell should be fit for purpose, regardless of how much money is spent on them.

Just because people aren't shelling out multiple thousands for toolroom quality machines does not give the importers a license to rip people off by sending them junk. Which is exactly what they are doing.

Edited By Carl Wilson 4 on 21/11/2017 14:22:49

Carl hits nail on head. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say there's a deliberate attempt to rip anyone off. I'm sure dealers would rather have product go out without any issues and thus happy customers because it's a pain in the a**e for them too. However, I don't think it would hurt if, like Arc do (did), the machine was checked before going out. At least that way, duff ones would be intercepted before getting into the market place which in turn would encourage the factory to turn out better product.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Mark P. on 21/11/2017 16:58:46:
Don't know about Chester but I can't fault WARCO had 3 machines from them and their aftersales service is great.
Mark P.

Ditto, and their spare parts service is normally good too. Always someone to pick up the phone there.

I personally, found that there have been a lot of unfavourable stories about chester, so I have never used them, rightly or wrongly, it's saying just why I don't, despite their very good prices.

Michael W

[Author]

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