Can you suggest a better Bookbinding Glue?

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Hello

Can you recommend a glue for fabric (or book cloth) onto card (or greyboard/paper)?
It needs to:

1. Stay 'repositionable' for a while (e.g. 3 minutes), and then

2. Set fairly quickly (e.g. 10 to 30 mins?)

3. Be flexible or rubbery once set (==> able to flex with the cardboard or paper base layer)

4. Be 'paintable' on with either a brush or with spatula (==> but not spray-on as this makes a mess!)

Ideally it should also:

5. Be transparent once set

6. Not go brittle or yellow with age

BACKGROUND

I need to be able to apply the glue to both to small (5x5cm) areas and also to fairly large areas (e.g. A4), without it setting – in effect before I can apply the second other surface that is to be glued on.

I don't want to use 3M's PhotoMount because as a spray it stinks and makes total mess in a domestic environment.

I have been trying 'Pinflair – Glue-it – Bookbinding Glue' but it sets too quickly and when applied thinly it can 'grab' within seconds.

I have also tried 'Pinflair Glue Gel' but it seems to stay sticky for multiple hours if not days [although my tube may be too old, not sure]

Fwiw, Pinflair also make some stuff they call 'Pinflair Foto Glue' that I am also going to try shortly…

Any suggestions?

J

Edited By John Smith 47 on 29/04/2021 17:18:14

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Not sure why yellowing or transparency would matter if its cloth glued to card, also nearly all adhesives are going to be flexible if they are just a very thin layer.

My suggestion…. try PVA

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

Most bookbinders in the printers i go to use pva

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

There are many [e.g. PVA's, PVA/paste mixes, hide glues, hot melts, something from the Planatol range] or no glues at all that might fit the bill, depending on what your exact requirements are. Your number 3 requirement especially is hard to be certain of; how much flex are you talking about? It's worth pointing out that card, paper and even cloth are not very tolerant of repeated flexion when the angle of flexion becomes quite small, even if the glue is.

Posted by John Smith 47 on 29/04/2021 17:14:59:

I need to be able to apply the glue to both to small (5x5cm) areas and also to fairly large areas (e.g. A4), without it setting – in effect before I can apply the second other surface that is to be glued on.

What you describe there is a basic procedure in bookbinding "forwarding". Success in it has a lot to do with your current bench skills, specifically how dexterously you can handle glued-out paper and cloth without making a mess and getting glue where it's not supposed to go. It's not a skill that comes over night, particularly if you are having to handle large sheets.

I take it you have a grounding in the sorts of things that, besides choice of adhesive, are critical to obtaining neat and effective adhesion of bookbinding materials, e.g. grain direction, the porosity, penetrability and gsm of the paper or card, what is being stuck to what, the likely pull different quantities/concentrations of your chosen adhesive will exert when the work is dry…

Edited By Bill Phinn on 29/04/2021 19:07:38

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

 

Any particular brand of PVA glue?

– Given my constraints (repositionable but fairly fast to dry etc – see above), is it worth paying extra for a tackier, thicker brand of PVA glue?

e.g. These PVA glues all seem to have fairly good reviews on the dreaded Amazon:

A) "Noble Craft – Professional Crafters Glue – PVA Glue Strong Craft Glue" – 500ml – c. £8.50

B) "Beacon Adhesives – 3-in-1 – Advanced Craft Glue – Dries Crystal Clear" – 118ml (Pack of 2 Bottles) – c. £10.75

C) "Everbuild – EVBPVA05L – 501 Universal – PVA Bond" 500 ml – £2.80

D) "Original Hi-Tack Very Sticky PVA Glue – Craft Adhesives" 115ml

 

E) "Collall Glue – Refill 1000ml, Blue" – 1000ml – £20.00

Thanks

J

Edited By John Smith 47 on 29/04/2021 19:06:53

Edited By John Smith 47 on 29/04/2021 19:07:29

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

For bookbinding – none of those.

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

@Bill Phinn – Strictly speaking it is for a new product model [long story] rather than for 'an actual book', but I'm guessing that it's broadly similar materials, but since you ask here are some further details:

A) I am bonding two layers of 1.4mm thick paper-coated greyboard together.

B) I am also experimenting with wrapping the above in various different top layers including various grades of (premium) book cloth and/or with fabric/specialist finishes etc. (e.g. from Winter & Company)

Nope, I don't have much background in book-binding. You raise a good point – yes the book cloth will be used to hinge so it needs to be reasonably flexible and form a reasonably strong bond to the greyboard.

The Greyboard
It took me a long time to find some good quality strong and rigid cardboard (AKA greyboard).
The greyboard I am using is much stronger & more rigid than anything that the likes of Antalis manufacture. It's made by Limehouse Board Mills and is called "2 Sided Kraft Lined Greyboard" but is only available in bulk. For complicated reasons it must be a '2-ply' construction i.e. the greyboard has consist of two layers of board bonded together. The total result (including thickness of the book cloth wrapping it both sides) needs to be 2.5 to 3.0mm.

If you happen to know of any particularly strong grades of cardboard/greyboard please let me know.

EDIT – Note that at this point I am trying to build a credible model (rather than go into production of the final version) so it is important that the glue is slightly forgiving and allows me to reposition things for a while at least. That said, I don't want to have to wait for multiple hours for the glue to set. 

Edited By John Smith 47 on 29/04/2021 19:49:23

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 29/04/2021 19:08:25:

For bookbinding – none of those.

How about this stuff from Shepherds London:

"Bookbinders Paste – Binders Paste – Medium Dry Time – BOOKPASTE225" – 225ml – £7.50

**LINK**

It's a "50/50 mix of our EVA and Starch Paste", evidently.

[Martyn DuncumbParticipant @martynduncumb88863]

Another possibility is plain starch and water, nowadays refined starch.

I have worked for quite a time as a volunteer in libraries repairing their books. When I began we were using organic flour and water as the paste. This has since been replaced by a refined starch and water. Basically the same thing. One basic requirement of our work is that repairs are reversible and this paste allows this. The paste is used not only for paper repairs but book cloth repairs to boards and damage to the spines of books. It is certainly flexible enough to repair spines. I have also used it for my own bookbinding.

You would need to experiment yourself to see if it has all the qualities you are seeking.

What impressed me is that a rather old fashioned seeming method still provides us with the solution we need.

Martyn

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

John, I'd have to see exactly what you're doing to know what adhesive I'd use, but the EVA/paste mix from Shepherds is a good general choice for cloth on board in giving a generous "open" time before the glue starts to go off and in having archival qualities.

There are alternative sources for good quality bookbinding adhesives to Shepherds, namely J Hewit and Sons, Ratchfords, Conservation Resources, and Conservation by Design.

If you want a strong [and archival] board, forget any type of greyboard; choose millboard instead.

Martyn, among other circumstances in which I use paste, I too use it [or sometimes gelatine] as the first adhesive on back folds of spines on antiquarian books, and do so not just for reasons of reversibility; Evacon and some PVA's are reversible and supposedly PH neutral, but I'd be surprised if their long term effects on paper and leather are as benign as a simple starch paste.

[Peter Low 4Participant @peterlow4]

As an ex bookbinder. I served my apprenticeship when PVA adhesive was "the new thing". We learned almost week by week what it was good for. And it was Good!

You could use it to advantage in place of hot glue for some things and in place of paste in others, but for some other purposes the trad glue and paste were still the best and I believe that still holds true today.

I would think that straight PVA would do the job well. Paste will give you more time to move materials about, but PVA will remain properly flexible on any hinged parts.

Pete.

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

@Peter Low – do different brands of PVA vary much? If so do you have any recommendations? Bill Phin was sounding dubious about PVA, for bookbinding purposes at least, although he didn't specify exactly why.

@Bill Phinn – Okay I have ordered some "50/50 mix of our EVA and Starch Paste" from Shepherds – [although they feel darned expensive with their "£5.00 for postage by Royal Mail Parcel arriving in 4-5 Working Days", when Amazon will mostly deliver stuff "next day" for free, as I am on Prime.]

Btw, would your recommend applying it with a spatula or with a brush?

I'm trying to find out the difference between "millboard" and "greyboard". It seems that they are both made from dead trees pasted together, but millboard (be a type of "paperboard" – i.e. "a stiff board formed from layers of paper or pulp pasted together&quot is presumably virgin where was greyboard has been recycled, yes?

Are "mill board", "millboard", "paperboard", "bookbinder board", "hardcover binding" and "book binding board" all the same thing?

Can anyone recommend any suppliers of a nice strong millboard?

Ideally needs to be c.1.2 to mm 1.4mm thick and – if it is anything like greyboard – then it needs to be paper lined to give the added strength in the all-important outer layers.

J

PS I would be (pleasantly) surprised if you can beat Limehouse Board Mills's "2 Sided Kraft Lined Greyboard" on strength.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

John, I answered your question about where to get millboard here: **LINK**

You can also buy millboard from Hewit's, but theirs is not Gemini, and not guaranteed PH neutral afaik.

For applying adhesives in the circumstances you describe I would use a brush, not a spatula.

Contrary to what you say to Peter Low, I use PVA regularly for bookbinding, just not on the backfolds [and on certain other parts] of antiquarian books.

If you want to learn the difference between greyboard [lined or otherwise] and millboard, or any other definitive information on bookbinding, I'd suggest reading an authoritative manual on the subject such as Arthur Johnson's, or the invaluable works of the late Bernard Middleton. Your suggested disambiguation for the two classes of board isn't accurate.

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

@Bill Phinn
> I answered your question about where to get millboard here: **LINK**

My bad – please accept my humble apologies! Yes I emailed them on Wednesday and I see that they have now replied. So that's good.

Regarding PVA – without getting into who said what – but now that I have told you more about my project do you still think that PVA would NOT be appropriate?

I tried researching all the different types of "board" about 2 years ago and their different meanings. We need something with good 'eco friendly' credentials that is also strong and with a good strength-weight ratio. e.g. I spent a while looking into MDF, HDF, chipboards, various light-weight woods (incl balsa-wood) various types plywood, various grades of grey boards… I even briefly looked at aerogels… but bobody mentioned millboard!

– MDF & HSD are horrible materials, terrible for the environment. Give workers cancer.
– Chipboard is too thick
– Certain grades of plywood are remarkably rigid but below 3mm thick they become way too expensive
– Balsa wood is remarkably strong for its weight but when it gets too thin (e.g. sub 3mm ) it becomes too weak & flexible, plus large sheets (A4+ sized sheets) are hard to obtain.
– Greyboard – highly recycled – horribly weak

Regarding the definition of words, it seems that different people including different countries use the terms somewhat loosely which is somewhat confusing for us newbies. Arguably I it is more important for me to learn the properties of what is commercially available than they underlying definitions.

Nonetheless I could certainly use a primer in the subject, and so I had a quick search. Arthur W. Johnson's most recent relevant book seems to be this one:

**LINK**

It was published by back in 1978 – i.e. about 43 years ago. Bookbinding is obviously a very mature technology but 43 years old makes me nervous… Surely some things have changed in all that time!

Btw, I don't need the board to be pH neutral, if that helps any.

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Can anyone offer any hints or tips on how best to use this stuff?
"Bookbinders Paste – Binders Paste – Medium Dry Time" (from Shepherds)

**LINK**

What I like about this paste is:

A) It doesn't seem to cause the book cloth to stretch and/or curl… (unlike the "Noble Craft – Professional Crafters Glue – PVA Glue Strong Craft Glue" which is a nightmare in that regard!) My guess is that it has very much less water in it than the PVA glue.

B) Unlike the "Collall – All Purpose Glue" it seems to give you seem to have plenty of time to get it to where you want it before it start to set.

Background
I am using it in two different situations:
A) Bonding millboard to millboard
B) Bonding book cloth to millboard

NOTE: For bonding the book cloth to millboard, the book cloth will be acting as a hinge.

Questions:

1. Just how thickly should it be applied?
I can achieve a very thin, even layer if I use a plastic spatula.

2. To speed up the setting process (which does seem VERY slow) should it be allowed to dry for a minute or so before the two sides are brought together?

3. How can you best avoid the glue going beyond the edge of the part?

4. How long is it supposed to take before it will form a half-decent bond? – "over night"?

5. Is it important to apply pressure whilst it sets?

6. How flexible is it when it is fully set? I mean once it gets fully just how flexible/brittle will it be?

Do you have any other hints or tips about Binder's Paste

With thanks

J

PS I find the Collall 'All Purpose Glue' useful because, being solvent not water based, it doesn't warp anything (unlike PVA)

Sometimes it is also nice to be able to move fast between successive stages of a project, due to its rapid setting time. But it I would like to find a way to slow it down. It is also rather too thick. Maybe I could thin it using a solvent like acetone or Isopropanol?

PPS What about EVA
e.g. "Eva-con R Adhesive" from Shepherds

**LINK**
When Shepherd talk about a "Fast Dry Time" how fast is that likely to be?
Will it be like Collall where seconds count – or closer to the Binders Paste… where it seems to take an hour (??) to start t set and 8 hours to go properly hard (??)
Shepherds do talk about mixing it with starch paste to slow it down – but I don't really know how I would do that….

I am feeling out of my depth…

Any advise gratefully received!

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

PS For bonding 2 layers of mill board, are we supposed to apply the glue to both sides?

The problem I am having is that it all takes time.
And whilst I am applying the glue to the second layer of millboard, the first one starts curling due to the water content… and then the two layers don't want to stick to each other because of the curling.

Also the whole process seems incredibly messy. I seem to require a new sheet of paper for each part I glue!

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