British machine tools

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Back on topic, well almost:

I wonder how many people who decry the quality of far eastern manufacturing have actually been there and seen it? When I first went to China to get transformers made, over 20 years ago, there were a few good manufacturers but a lot of people working out of dirty premises the size of a double garage. You couldn't tell the difference without visiting.

Since then things have improved enormously and quality control in many cases is better than in the UK. Of course quality doesn't mean supplying a Rolls Royce when the customer wants a Mini – it's all about meeting the customer's requirements.

As an example of one of my more recent experiences, I had some plastic mouldings made in the UK. It took 12 weeks for the tools to be made and then the samples off the tool were wrong and the tool had to be re-worked. A bit later I needed some other mouldings and went to the far east. I sent them CAD drawings, they performed flow analysis, made the tools, and sent perfect samples back within about three weeks all at a fraction of the cost in the UK.

I haven't been out there for about six years now and it would be interesting to hear how things have progressed from more recent visitors.

Russell.

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Yes, you are right Russel, old age and memory playing tricks.

Clive

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I have very 'umble Rotel deck that replaced my Garrard a quarter century ago, a Panasonic amp that replaced a 'tripletone' and KEF Coda speakers that replaced RS dual cone speakers in my own boxes. In the workshop I have a pair of speakers from a Phillips music centre and a very basic home-made one-IC amp. Sounds better than some of the 'hi-fi' I was exposed to in the 80s without having to have 15" speakers 'for bass you can really feel', as Tandy used to advertise.

Neil

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Many years ago ( in the good old days of valves) I worked with an old guy who was a Hi Fi fanatic – he had a much modified Rogers amp which he sold to me as a foundation for my first Hi Fi system. He lived in a small house and had blocked in one side of his fireplace to make a horn enclosure for his speaker – and it sounded great with superb bass performance. There was a snag however. Great stereo equipment – successful speaker construction BUT, try as he might, his wife would not let him build the enclosure for the second speaker in the other alcove!

Norman

Edited By NJH on 08/08/2014 12:41:25

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

The impression that I get is the Chinese manufactures will make what you ask them to make. I spoke to a chap at a model show who had some dealings with the Chinese manufacturers, he said the Chinese view of the British was they wanted the cheapest price possible whereas the Germans were interested in quality. I think the perception of poor quality is what you get at the cheapest price, pay more and you can have better quality. Most of the products we associate as quality items are made in Asia/China. BMW build cars in China, I am sure they and all the other top brands will not risk their reputations on shoddy goods, so the Chinese build what they require. I am sure a Myford could be built in China to Myfords fit finish and accuracy but it would probably only come out a bit cheaper than Uk manufacture. The post war Myfords were not at the bottom end of the market in their day but were so much better than the opposition alot of people scrimped and saved to buy one. The market that was wiped out first was the bottom end Uk manufacturers, the Asian machines for all their faults were a massive bargain and streets ahead of the cheap Uk machines. Eventually the price quality equasion made it hard to justify the extra money to buy British. Us home shop machinists probably had a free ride on the back of educational supply anyway and with the decline of that market no one could make a living out of the Uk HSM market.

Mike

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

People forget that branded goods such as Nikon, Canon, Sony etc may have a factory and employ a workforce from China or Taiwan (because the labour costs are cheaper) but the factory itself, the manufacturing quipment in it and most importantly, the quality control is directly under their control. They’re not buying a Chinese product and putting their own label on it.

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Speaking as somebody who wears a pair of hearing aids these days, the Hi Fi discussion is pretty academic!

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

The Japanese had a pretty poor reputation in the fifties and sixties but they saw that quality was the key to success, with good design, attention to detail and manufacturing processes they very quickly built a formidable reputation for quality and reliability. Using the Japanese manufacturing processes the Chinese worker can match the best in the world, I suspect their home grown brands will quickly match the worlds best but as with Japan the product cost will rise with the quality and then it will be the turn of the next emerging economy to build the poor quality products until they too learn the quality methods.

Mike

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Hi Chris,

> They're not buying a Chinese product and putting their own label on it.

I'm not saying that isn't true in some cases, but my understanding is that many 'quality' brands do exactly that; they may specify certain 'upgrades', but some products come off the same line as the 'budget' devices do on another day.

> it will be the turn of the next emerging economy to build the poor quality products

India is already undercutting China with lower quality goods.

Africa will be next after that.

If it's a 20-year cycle the UK will be next when we start manufacturing again in 2060

Neil

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Michael Poole on 08/08/2014 15:00:26:

Using the Japanese manufacturing processes the Chinese worker can match the best in the world, I suspect their home grown brands will quickly match the worlds best

Yes, Apple and Samsung need to watch out for Lenovo tablets and mobile phones!

Russell.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

With so many premium brands being manufactured in Asia they are having a perfect training course laid on in their own backyard, the japanese had to visit Europe and the USA to begin with but went away and developed manufacturing and quality control to a fine art. Often the design is still in Europe USA and Japan but looking at the amount of Asian students studying at the worlds top universitys I am sure they will soon have the design and inovation of world beating products sorted out. Neil, that thought of our turn coming round again has crossed my mind, with so many people on the minimum wage already, we are well on our way.

Mike

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

Some mouth-watering Hi-Fi gear mentioned here, all beyond my pocket (AND aural range!!). Some 50 years ago, when I was still hearing reasonably well, I had dinner with Bangkok's richest Brit – he had a replica English country cottage (with diamond leaded lights etc.) and his music setup was all Quad – pre-amp, amp, and a pair of electro-statics, plus a Ferrograph tape deck. Superb music, until he put on a Foster-Jenkins record … .

With all this kit available, did anyone use it to advantage for tonight's Prom – the glorious Mahler 5 and particularly the 3rd movement. All we had was the Panasonic's built-ins – with the kit you chaps are talking about, it would have been almost too much.

Rgds

Bill

[JonParticipant @jon]

Posted by Michael Poole on 08/08/2014 13:17:51:

I am sure a Myford could be built in China to Myfords fit finish and accuracy but it would probably only come out a bit cheaper than Uk manufacture. Mike

I can remember going in to Reeves in Brum back in 92 and they were already well established, probably their downturn. The immediate difference from afar was the extra distance of 1/2" spindle to tailstock and general finish.

[JonParticipant @jon]

Back in late 70's we had several Chinese studying, probably the ones that got the ball rolling.

chinas stance on patents is non existent, so why support them by fueling their economy its theft.

Not only that buying foreign does british workers out of a job.

From what I have seen of Indias manufacturing its far better than Chinese still ropey putting it mildly. The only companies that do well as said earlier are the multiconglomerates using their own big chiefs to stand over these plants ruling the roost. If not quality slips with every batch and not worthwhile the hassle of returning the goods. Mrs has full time job sorting the c..p out and putting it right. Borderline pulling manufacturing plant as a lot of others are doing and setting backup in homeland.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Back in 1986, when I bought my Taiwanese lathe, there was also a Taiwanese clone of a Myford, except it had a large bore spindle, and according to the sale's man it was quite a bit heavier than a standard Myford, and I was told that they thought it was all together a better machine, and less than half the price(that's their opinion). The spindle was either no 4 or no 5 MT, and I think it had Poly-V belts. Ian S C

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Michael Poole on 08/08/2014 21:37:09:

Neil, that thought of our turn coming round again has crossed my mind, with so many people on the minimum wage already, we are well on our way.

Yes, but there is a long way to go yet with the national minimum wage (for over 21s) being about 10x that in China!

Russell.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Jon on 08/08/2014 23:16:38:

Not only that buying foreign does british workers out of a job.

You can't avoid it. Where did the computer you're using come from? Where were the components made? Where did the raw materials come from?

The same goes for cars, televisions, washing machines, even food.

Russell.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Apparently the 'purchasing power' of the minimum wage in China is now about 25% of the UK minimum wage, due to lower cost of living, and is comparable to much of South America or Eastern Europe rather than South Asia.

Food for thought, even if I'm not sure what the implications are!

Neil

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 07/08/2014 09:18:06:

Just a Nokia C5.

.

Neil and [especially] Norman,

I think you might enjoy exploring this raher neat comparison page.

MichaelG.

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

It is exchange rates that that control the competiveness of manufacturers. Third world countries and China in particular with its government controlled (Non floating) currency has very effectively.wiped out entire industries in the West, clothing for instance, anything that can be mass produced and shipped is at risk. We are at war, a trade war, and we are loosing.

Regards
John

[JonParticipant @jon]

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 09/08/2014 12:02:59:

Posted by Jon on 08/08/2014 23:16:38:

Not only that buying foreign does british workers out of a job.

You can't avoid it. Where did the computer you're using come from? Where were the components made? Where did the raw materials come from?

The same goes for cars, televisions, washing machines, even food.

Russell.

Of course you can, you have a choice! Support and fuel others economy with irretrievable repercussions or support your own. When its gone, its gone who is to blame British public for generations after seeing no deeper than their own pocket.

You cant avoid it when you have no choice.

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

I think one of the mistakes we have made is to compete on price rather than quality, It is noticeable that DS&G, who built "nowt but lathes" and always were top quality, are still in business. Britain was always good at innovating, and making the very best, we should give that a try. competeing on price is a non starter with our cost of living!

Phil.

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Posted by Jon on 09/08/2014 19:45:36:

Of course you can, you have a choice! Support and fuel others economy with irretrievable repercussions or support your own. When its gone, its gone who is to blame British public for generations after seeing no deeper than their own pocket.

You cant avoid it when you have no choice.

I venture to suggest that blind support for British industry is sterile. It would only encourage them to make sub-standard goods that have no export market, as I learnt to my cost by continuing to buy Leyland cars. Companies like DSG have moved on to hi-tech and high value. If anything, the problem is with the short term view of British investors insisting that they see a return within the financial year, which means that they are reluctant to invest in the long term. The last project I was involved with before I retired was the installation of some fairly standard tensile testing gear in a fairly exotic environment which meant some adaptation to the machines. The technical guys at two British based companies were very interested but they were warned off the project by their financial people. The German company we approached were happy to take on the job, realising that the profit might not be great but that they would learn something from the project which could useful for the future. The German company was a large, well established concern but family owned and run – they clearly had a different outlook to the Brits and I got to drink some nice German beer.

I don't agree, either, that when it's gone it's gone. These things are cyclic, as Neil has said. There have been items on the news fairly recently of clothing manufacture moving back to the UK, largely as a result of high shipping costs.

I think that, ultimately, what's best for you is probably what's best for the country as a whole.

Cheers,

Rod

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

According to a news bulletin last year, a large number of US companies are taking manufacturing back to the States.

It might be noted though, that such companies as Continental (aero engines) is Chinese owned.

Ian S C

Edited By Ian S C on 10/08/2014 12:10:15

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

My take on the demise of British Industry is bad management, the car industry being the most simple example.

I don't think a single true British car manufacturer still exists anymore

Some people "blame the unions" and yet foreign car manufacturers waltz into the UK and use the same workforce to crank out huge numbers of good quality vehicles

The final confirmation for me was the demise of Manganese Bronze who made the totally unique and very capable Black Taxi, an iconic and instantly recognisable global brand

A series of unbelievably catastrophic decisions concerning the engine (not once… but twice!) eventually resulted in them finally going t**s up and being bought out by the Chinese

[Author]

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