Brass Founder vs Brass Caster

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Mrs G. is working on the Family History

Around Birmingham, in the 1850s … What would be the distinction between a Brass Founder and a Brass Caster ?

My guess is that a Caster actually poured metal, and a Founder owned or managed the Foundry … but does anyone know for sure, please.

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Founder

I think you are correct. The word Founder without Brass is just that a FOUNDER.

Steve.

[Clive Brown 1Participant @clivebrown1]

I'd say that the terms are, to all intents and purposes, synonymous. Steve's link appears to support this.

ie. "founder:- one who casts metals in various forms, a caster"

Edited By Clive Brown 1 on 14/10/2020 15:20:39

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

A foundry is a place where metal is cast which comes from the French but is related to the meaning of found as in establish, set up or put in place. That is where metal is 'put in place' so at root metal caster and metal founder have the same meaning, although Michael's assumption that the Founder owns the foundry could well be correct.

Another distinction would be between a brass caster and a coppersmith.

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Oh no, it seems it's more subtle than that, found (establish etc.), found (discover) and found (cast metal) all have different roots.

http://www.etymonline.com/word/found

Neil

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 14/10/2020 15:21:09:

Oh no, it seems it's more subtle than that, found (establish etc.), found (discover) and found (cast metal) all have different roots.

http://www.etymonline.com/word/found

Neil

I looked at that link too. But found is not founder surely. 

Or is it.

Steve.

Edited By Steviegtr on 14/10/2020 15:41:33

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

I would speculate that a 'founder' was a contraction of 'foundryman' and may have been a broader term than just casting. How was bar, rod, strip and sheet produced? Google under 'brassfounder' as one word finds it used.

Ifa founder was a fabricator then many roles: https://oldcopper.org/special_topics/casting_fabrication.php#_Toc432439726

pgk

[Swarf, Mostly!Participant @swarfmostly]

The French verb meaning 'to melt' is 'fondre'.

However did Kelly's Directory manage before the Norman Conquest?

Best regards,

Swarf, Mostly!

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Michael,

I'm not sure it would be easy to establish whether there was any consistent distinction in practice between a founder and a caster, and I don't think etymology is a useful place to start.

To gain some insight into whether there was any distinction, it might be worth searching old dictionaries of trades and commerce, such as the following:

https://archive.org/details/universaldiction01post/page/n839/mode/2up

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 14/10/2020 16:35:12:

Michael,

I'm not sure it would be easy to establish whether there was any consistent distinction in practice between a founder and a caster, and I don't think etymology is a useful place to start.

To gain some insight into whether there was any distinction, it might be worth searching old dictionaries of trades and commerce, such as the following:

https://archive.org/details/universaldiction01post/page/n839/mode/2up

.

Thanks for the link, Bill … the entry for ‘Founder’ is useful; but as there is none for ‘Caster’ the mystery remains.

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Just found this fascinating archive about the Sheffield flood claims : **LINK**

https://www2.shu.ac.uk/sfca/indexOccupations.cfm?initial=B

Both terms are listed, and it appears that Founders made bigger claims than Casters

MichaelG.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

This book might be worth a look as well, Michael:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=pst.000057652054&view=1up&seq=1

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

There couls also just be some element of local usage or differences more important to the workers than the public, like the difference between a joiner and a carpenter. Notably in a foundry things are cast but where's the castery where people found.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Keynsham near Bristol is the home of modern British Brass making. It dates back to 1706 using imported Dutch experts and Mendip Calamine. Done in a Brass Mill, not a Foundry, and the 1851 Census identifies the staff as Brass Workers. I reckon Mrs G. is researching a bunch of Johnny Come Latelies who didn't know what they were doing. Always had my suspicions about Brummies!

Dave

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 14/10/2020 17:39:03:

This book might be worth a look as well, Michael:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=pst.000057652054&view=1up&seq=1

.

Thanks again, Bill … I think we may have it this time

I downloaded the PDF from archive.org and it makes explicit reference to Casters as the ones who do the actual pouring.

On p131 it states, under ON THE SUBSIDIARY BOOKS OF THE WORKSHOP

.

THE CASTERS’ BOOK.

Every morning the casters have their metals weighed out to them from the stove, and booked as follows:—

[…]

So, I am reasonably satisfied that my original conjecture was correct.

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Big big difference between a joiner and a carpenter !!

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Micheal,

If you have not already done this, you may find interesting to look within the Census data at occupiers of near premises. I have often found residents worked for the same employer/industry. For example sometime a large number of railway staff in close proximity.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

To add nothing of consequence to the discussion

The trouble with the English language is that it has evolved from so many others, as the land was invaded.

So it will have words that sound the same, but have different meanings, depending on their roots.

Some may be Roman, Scandinavian or French in origin, with Eastern additions, and even more, as travel across the world improved.

And the rules of syntax seem to apply differently depending on the origin of the word, whether verb, noun or adjective

Just look at MG's word "Founder". Originator, One who melts/pours/casts, Sink.

No wonder that a couple of centuries on we have problems having a complete understanding.

It would be interesting to know just how so many apparently similar words are / were derived.

Howard

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Hi Michael –

In the days of PD software for PCs (1985 – 90 ish) there was a disk with a street index of Birmingham in, I think 1818 available.

If I can find a copy I will let you have it if you think it will help Mrs G in her researches.

My own are difficult in Ireland as it is clear some relatives were bound up in the fracas that involved the burning down of the Customs House that included many records about those same relatives whom I should like to research. Life is never easy!

Take care,

Nick

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Many thanks to everyone for your further thoughts; and especially to you, Nick

… I will send you a P.M. later this evening.

MichaelG.

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