Are we the last generation.?

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Posted by larry Phelan on 08/03/2017 11:30:57:

Some time ago my nabour,a carpenter,asked me if I might be able to repair his saw bench,an old De Walt model [Well he thought it was old at 20 years,I have my home made saw bench for the last 50 years,home made because at the time,I could not afford to buy one ] . Anyway what had happened was that the thread on the shaft to which the blade was fitted had become damaged,

I was even lucky enough to find a Whitworth nut to suit,in my junk box [never throw out anything ] Result for a little time and effort, the machine is now back up and running.

Just read this and I have to ask, was the nut originally left hand thread? The saw benches I have come across are. I assume as you say you 'found a nut' your fix was probably a right hand thread. It's worth checking as I would say it's a bit safety critical. If it was a left hander it may explain the messed up thread. Perhaps the original got lost and someone wound something a little bigger on it ? As I say I could be wrong but the warning bells started as soon as I read the post.

regards Martin

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I bet there were people who thought die-cut Keil Kraft kits were the end of aeromodelling…

Neil

[Flying FiferParticipant @flyingfifer]

And after die cut came laser cut. Funnily enough Neil I can`t remember KK doing Die cut kits but They originally did " dye" printed whidh you had to cut out with either an Xacto knife or bits of broken razor blades. I can still remember my Dad complaining that his razor blades weren`t as good as they used to be. I wonder why???

Some of the Frog kits were die cut.

Alan

[Steve WithnellParticipant @stevewithnell34426]

Posted by Flying Fifer on 09/03/2017 15:58:16:

I can still remember my Dad complaining that his razor blades weren`t as good as they used to be. I wonder why???

Alan

I still remember Dad swearing and cursing after attempting to shave one morning. I'd put the blade back in his razor after borrowing it to cut some wing ribs out…

Steve

[Richard S2Participant @richards2]

Posted by Flying Fifer on 09/03/2017 15:58:16:

And after die cut came laser cut. Funnily enough Neil I can`t remember KK doing Die cut kits but They originally did " dye" printed whidh you had to cut out with either an Xacto knife or bits of broken razor blades. I can still remember my Dad complaining that his razor blades weren`t as good as they used to be. I wonder why???

Some of the Frog kits were die cut. Alan

That take's me back!. I don't have much left from those days of the late 50's- early 60's. Sold all my Engines a few years ago……I do still have my David Combi Razor Plane somewhere though!.

I didn't nick my Dad's blades, but he found a use for my Tube of Alum from my Chemistry Set!…..to stem the blood flow from the occasional shaving cut(s).

[Flying FiferParticipant @flyingfifer]

It must be 60 odd years ago but I can remember regularly buying a Winchester bottle full of Ether to mix up with engine oil to make fuel for our model engines from our local chemist. Used to buy Amyl nitrate or was it nitite to add a few drops to the mix.. Can you imagine that happening now !!!

Still got my ED 246`s, Amco 3.5, ED Bee, Mills 75, Frog 500 & a couple of Mercos`. Son won`t let me sell them. Scares the hell out of the neighbours when I give em a run.

Alan

[Phil BoylandParticipant @philboyland37326]

Part of the problem is a lot of kids want to climb up the ladder and be a manager, so even if they do an apprenticeship with an engineering company, the tech skills are just a mere stepping stone. I know there are a few that want to machine things, but they are sadly getting few and far between. Also companies are just not offering the numbers of places they used to. I joined Rolls Royce in Bristol during the late 80's where 80 odd craft apprentices were taken on. This year there was 5 places availiable. Interestingly I have told a few of my fellow ex apprentice chums about me just buying a lathe and all but 1 said why and looked at me as if I was a Martian? I expected a better reaction than that.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Pretty much for my entire career (Electronics engineering) the situation was that if you wanted better pay and promotion you had to switch to management. There have always been some attempt at creating senior specialist posts but it never really works that well. My current job is the only one I have found that doesn't suffer from this issue. We are essentially self managing. We do have a workshop head but he gets paid the same as the rest of us. Sort of what Monty Python called an autonomous collective or an anarco-syndicalist commune. Scientist just come in and ask one of us for a job to be done and we do it.

It's interesting work but no-one is going to get rich on it especially with the permanent public sector pay freeze.

regards Martin

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

I was in the Merchant Navy in the late 70s and early 80 when we had big companies with 80-100 plus ships and during all those years sailing 24/7 with engineers I only ever heard one mention of a lathe being used, by one guy, in one company. They spoke with a mixture of amusement and amazement at his skills.

So even back then the real skills were gone and engineers were really only spare parts fitters.

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

" If you wanted better pay and promotion switch to management" Only true in some cases. I managed a toolmaking company for 25 years. If I had remained hourly paid I would have earnt a lot of money as it was I was doing well over 60 hours a week for a steady salary/ company car and private health care.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Hi Chris. The trouble is, youngsters need money more than terms and conditions so they switch. Once it's done it usually stays done. Terms and condition get more important as we get older. The UK has generally never been that good at rewarding productive people early enough in their careers.

regards Martin

[Dan JonesParticipant @danjones77555]

As a 19 year old engineering apprentice I think I can make fair comment. I'm standing evidence as the new generation of manual machinists, which disbands the theory that middle aged people (or however old) are the last generation. I have completed several previous projects which have all required some form of machining work, including tool grinding and making jigs as well as actual components.

I started my apprenticeship at 16 with 3 others in my year (although 1 later dropped out), all had completed a-levels or college equivalent where as I came straight from GCSEs. I still remain the youngest in the company after 3 years, with the newer apprentices being the same age or older, but despite this I think I can confidently say I'm the most practically able out of all the current (and some earlier) apprentices.

Money is a great incentive of course, but in a lot of cases the same amount of income can be gained from doing "clean-hands" jobs, something which does seem far more appealing to my generation. I've been able to purchase numerable projects and live quite comfortably, have my own car etc. Which a lot of my friends who have gone to sixth form or uni can't afford as they haven't had the same income that I have.

So in my opinion I would say that the largely diminished but still existant new generation is the way it is because of the attitude of the modern generation. Why give up an easy and inexpensive (from a teenage perspective) lifestyle for one which means you give up school holidays and nights out with mates to spend your entire time working for money to buys things you would get given anyway?

I personally can't complain, I get paid to learn, earn well respected qualifications and enjoy doing it. The end result means I've been able to achieve an initially long-term goal of owning a steam roller- now I'm the proud owner of a 1925 aveling and porter…

Food for thought from the "frontline "

Dan.

[Barnaby WildeParticipant @barnabywilde70941]

A good friend of mine makes longbows in the traditional way.

Saying he makes them the 'traditional way' is a little misleading because we forgot how to make longbows the traditional way over 2 centuries ago, and nobody ever thought it necessary to write down how they used to do it.

Nevertheless, we have since 'rediscovered' how we think they used to do it.

Manual machining techniques & practices will always exist. They will evolve & some things will be discarded but to say they will be forgotten is, to put it quite frankly, stupid.

[JonParticipant @jon]

Must admit that's the first time I have ever heard of Dans scenario in the last 30 odd years, well done keep it up.
The only or nearest thing came across is certain companies supposedly training apprentices for manual work of which they are not interested or do not actually produce anything relevant just shown the basics.

I am from an age where cnc was just coming in and apprentices were on way out, early 80's and can see both sides. Had an Apple 2E s/h in 81 or 2, no problem still writing proggies in basic but learnt the ropes as a kid making, designing and repairing things.
Do have a cnc lathe, never ever used, idea at time was for repetitive boring stuff but rarely do it or take it on.

I do have many customers who are fully trained modern programmers/machine setters on latest machinery, though some may be able to do what I do, their words would take too long and be exceedingly expensive to do if man hours were charged for.
I earn a living at one offs and low volume stuff cnc cannot compete with being 4 times dearer and needing more producing than necessary and charging for it. Workload currently in to September and took no work on since early Feb.

'Traditional' key word Mick, only the time served can train apprentices and pass the 'knowledge' on. You wont get that from any book ever published because certain things are kept inhouse. We did have an author pay us a visit every three months, only the raw basics no knowledge passed on and not giving the game away how we did things. Unless there are companies or craftsmen from 2 centuries ago that continually trained people up and passed the actual ways on, it definitely is not traditional but how whats thought to have happened.
Last job I started as some form of advanced apprentice in 99, taught all the know how from one persons actual knowledge handed down over the centuries, never written down it was forbidden even to take piccies for web site. So as one of three people alive with that knowledge it will die with gaffer and me the last two in the world. Any logic 'how to' decades later lost and what the new breed thinks what happened can and will be far from the truth.

Same work is mostly done by modern methods but still needs fitting and a degree of ingenuity brought on from time served. Theres also things modern ways cannot produce, they can look the same but not perform the same or certainly behave like a traditional quality made item punters are still paying for and not getting.

[Barnaby WildeParticipant @barnabywilde70941]

Posted by Jon on 17/03/2017 18:12:44:

'Traditional' key word Mick, only the time served can train apprentices and pass the 'knowledge' on. You wont get that from any book ever published because certain things are kept inhouse. We did have an author pay us a visit every three months, only the raw basics no knowledge passed on and not giving the game away how we did things. Unless there are companies or craftsmen from 2 centuries ago that continually trained people up and passed the actual ways on, it definitely is not traditional but how whats thought to have happened.
Last job I started as some form of advanced apprentice in 99, taught all the know how from one persons actual knowledge handed down over the centuries, never written down it was forbidden even to take piccies for web site. So as one of three people alive with that knowledge it will die with gaffer and me the last two in the world. Any logic 'how to' decades later lost and what the new breed thinks what happened can and will be far from the truth.

Same work is mostly done by modern methods but still needs fitting and a degree of ingenuity brought on from time served. Theres also things modern ways cannot produce, they can look the same but not perform the same or certainly behave like a traditional quality made item punters are still paying for and not getting.

We lost the ability to fashion a longbow almost overnight. Much like a housewife's ability to skin & boil a Rabbit. There was suddenly & simply no need for it.

The fact that we are able to fashion a longbow just as powerfull today proves the theory of 'passing on' to be wrong.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Although passing on experience and know how does make life easier for the recipient I think it is possible to solve the same problems and even to improve on the we have always done it like this way. I have always been willing to tell anyone anything I know and it has never done me any harm but I have met people who do not reciprocate and I think in the end it does them harm as people stop telling them anything. I have met plenty of people who think that they are indispensable and not one of them ever has been. If necessary we can reinvent the wheel.

Mike

[Allan BParticipant @allanb]

The way of passing on information and ways of doing things has served well for a long time, and yes with the way things are going there are skills that will be lost, but if you go back in time, someone had to work it out for themselves in the first place, so will be done again as needed, just now it will incorporate newer technology that our ancestors could only dream of.

Allan

[John FlackParticipant @johnflack59079]

Mike Poole

We can reinvent the wheel?

Please not on my lathe, I am only just getting the hang of screwcutting😰😤😤😤😤😤😤😤😤

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

No doubt there will always be a valued niche for manual machining and traditional skills but mainstream manufacturing has moved on.

Science and technology develop by building on earlier knowledge, not by reinventing the wheel. The result is progress. If we don't make things the original way it's because there's an advantageous alternative.

More. I can think of many, many things being made today that are well beyond the capability of earlier generations. And manufactured items are usually a lot cheaper than they were in the past.

It's very much harder to imagine anything made in yesteryear that couldn't be produced today. Can anyone suggest a technical object from the 'good old days' that couldn't be made today?

Cheers, Dave

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

To contradict myself, a replica Honda 250 six cylinder race engine was commissioned and the f1 engine builder could not replicate some of the original features.

Mike

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Can anyone suggest a technical object from the 'good old days' that couldn't be made today?

This one should have a thread of it's own methinks, gets the grey cells squeaking…

The WW1 German Paris gun which disappeared from the face of the earth along with its 100 man crew after the armistice?

A Saturn 5 rocket

A SR71 Blackbird

A TSR2

A baked Roman loaf (They still haven't figured out how they did baking on the march 2000 years ago, something to do with high temperatures and feeding 1000 hungry legionaires 3 times a day on a staple diet of bread)

The Pyramids

Edited By Ady1 on 18/03/2017 00:17:59

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Ady1 on 18/03/2017 00:06:07:

A baked Roman loaf (They still haven't figured out how they did baking on the march 2000 years ago)

Friction ??

[Barnaby WildeParticipant @barnabywilde70941]

Posted by Ady1 on 18/03/2017 00:06:07:

A baked Roman loaf (They still haven't figured out how they did baking on the march 2000 years ago, something to do with high temperatures and feeding 1000 hungry legionaires 3 times a day on a staple diet of bread)

Edited By Ady1 on 18/03/2017 00:17:59

http://www.roman-reenactor.com/roman%20military%20bread%20making.html

[Barnaby WildeParticipant @barnabywilde70941]

Anything that has been made can be made again. If we've scrapped the required machinery then we just need to re-build the machinery first.

Apart from Damscus steel.

We seem to have forgotten how to make true Damascus steel & despite many people trying to recreate the process we can't seem to get it 100% right.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Ady1 on 18/03/2017 00:06:07:

Can anyone suggest a technical object from the 'good old days' that couldn't be made today?

This one should have a thread of it's own methinks, gets the grey cells squeaking…

The WW1 German Paris gun which disappeared from the face of the earth along with its 100 man crew after the armistice?

A Saturn 5 rocket

A SR71 Blackbird

A TSR2

A baked Roman loaf (They still haven't figured out how they did baking on the march 2000 years ago, something to do with high temperatures and feeding 1000 hungry legionaires 3 times a day on a staple diet of bread)

The Pyramids

Edited By Ady1 on 18/03/2017 00:17:59

Interesting list from Ady. Only the Roman loaf had me worried though I see Mick Charity's provided a link.

• Even though we don't have the plans for the Paris Gun I don't it wouldn't be difficult to make something very like it. Actually, guns of that size have long since been replaced by missiles. A submarine launched Trident missile travels at about 14,000mph, has a range of over 6000 miles, and is accurate to within 30'. Actually, the missile itself never hits the target, While still several miles up, the missile deploys several independent nuclear warheads that spread out and explode at a height carefully calculated to maximise the damage. A single Trident would easily destroy Paris and much of the surrounding area. The Paris gun cause under a 1000 casulties, whilst the effectiveness of the Trident system is measured in Megadeaths.
• Unless they've been very careless NASA should still have the plans for the Saturn 5. If the space programme needed to put a large payload into deep space, it could be made again. At the moment it's useful to put satellites into low-earth orbit, and there are cheaper ways of doing it than Saturn 5.
• SR71 Blackbird was rendered obsolete by the development of satellites and their deployment in the numbers needed to cover the entire world. Again the plans and materials exist if someone was prepared to pay for it.
• TSR2 was an impressive aircraft in its time. Or would have been had it been affordable. It never went into production. With hindsight cancellation was probably the right decision in that the RAF managed quite well without it, though the failure to deliver certainly undermined British influence. Given enough cash it could be made today.

Where Ady scores a point is in examples like the British Nuclear Industry. When the customer ignores and demeans a strategic asset, he shouldn't be surprised after 20 years of neglect to find that restarting it is gob-smackingly expensive. Although it's always possible to begin again, lost skills and experience cannot be replaced quickly or on the cheap.

Dave

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