Are we the last generation.?

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

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Are we the last generation of manual machinists.?

What has prompted this is the other day a friend of mine came and as is usual come the evening we cooked, drank wine and listened to music. Now Eden is 24 but her preferred taste in music goes way back into the era of Marvin Gaye, Sam Cooke, Otis Redding, Aretha Franklin. etc, etc. i.e. 'the vocalists' where it is was all about the voice and the backing music was just. ………. Backing.! They had to be able to perform live to the same standard and without assistance as the recordings they released. And they did.

Eden is actually a reasonable singer herself and for her age there is quite a lot of depth to her personality. I consider myself fortunate to have her as a friend. – She went on to say. "There are no pure vocalists anymore." She then corrected this by saying there are a few such as Adele but generally pure vocalists are a thing of the past.

The conversation stayed in the area of 'things of the past'. She then remarked that nobody else she knows (bearing in mind apart from her mum and dad I am likely the oldest person she knows) makes or fixes things, anything. I think she considers my machines, workshop and the things made in it are some kind of magical voodoo dark art. The whole thing confuses yet fascinates her. She has a quizzical mind and she asks questions about everything. It's one of the things I like that about her.!

She asked who will do this sort of thing when you stop. Which was her polite and diplomatic way of saying when you are dead. – But she has a point. ……… Are we the last generation of 'manual machinists' and fixers of things.?

CNC is here and the future. It already has a place in the home workshop for many and it's increasing so presumably it will become the normal.

Just my thoughts and obviously that of my pretty faced friend.

Nick

Edited By Nick_G on 08/03/2017 04:46:56

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

[brickyParticipant @bricky]

We have become a generation of throw away items that don't work. Since the removal of woodworking and metalworking from schools we have youngsters leaving school who know nothing of manual skills so your friend is correct, they will have to dig us up if they ever need to repair anything.

Frank

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

There will be always be people who want to 'fix' things but as Frank says there isn't the training to make it easy. As for CNC it's just another tool, at home some will use it & some will not, obviously in industry it's a different matter.

Tony

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

I watch kit house building programs on TV from Britain, a lot of the kits that get built come from Germany.

Ian S C

[Stephen BensonParticipant @stephenbenson75261]

No I think the tide is about to turn, ephemeral products are just a phase it makes no sense to continue along this path a some point soon you will expect all domestic items to last a lifetime under service contracts. It is the cheap labour in India and China that has caused the problem and that will not last very much longer.

[Allan BParticipant @allanb]

There are some young people, I’m in the middle at 40, but I know a couple of young girls who are very good at machining, in fact one of them I would say is better than me.

I do have to agree that we have a lost generation of skills and I do wonder what the future holds.

Allan

[SteveWParticipant @stevew54046]

Yes, we will be the last. Who mends a new car, washing machine, radio, TV? Come to that who can mend them? Guess what part is faulty (or use a diagnostic computer) and put in a new part that was made in China. My Land Rover was the last car I could generally fix but the new ones – no chance.

[Jon GibbsParticipant @jongibbs59756]

Have to agree that yes we're very likely to be the last of the manual machinists but it's almost certainly not the end for repairs or making things.

There may be a few die-hards, akin to the old steam workshop types of today, who will hang on to manual machines but If anything needs making or repairing in future it'll be 3D printed IMHO.

3D printer technology has a long way to go yet and there'll always be engineers IMHO.

We are an adaptable bunch and will make-do and mend with whatever we have available.

Jon

[AJWParticipant @ajw]

My son (36) is like myself, I restored a beautiful M type Drummond for him which he loves – uses it more than I use my Myford! But I know for a fact he will be passing his skills to his offspring.
I do think, overall that our breed are on the decline though.

Alan

[Allan BParticipant @allanb]

There are still kids going through the colleges who do want to do this, the problem is when they get to college they are totally unprepared for it, with almost no maths skills, no analytical or problem solving skills, then the teachers have to spend most of the time working on these, rather than teaching the actual subject.

There are still the courses that concentrate on the base skills, the city and guilds engineering course dose not start on CNC until level 3 which is the third year, before that they still concentrate on manual machining.

Allan

[JAParticipant @ja]

My niece started making a Stuart 10 engine when at school. The school was fortunate to have a good well equipped workshop, Boxford lathe and Axminster milling machine, and she enjoyed using them. Since then she has been to university, got married, had a good job etc, and now in her late twenties just does not have the time. However I can see her returning to the engine sometime, probably after I have died and she's got my workshop.

I have every faith in the younger generation. This is a very, very old question which I think is associated with the vanity of old age.

JA

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

I am 69 and get a stream of similar aged people coming to my workshop with old motorcycle/car/ lawnmower parts to repair/replace.

I do get a few younger ones but they just want to get something fixed because they have no money and have no intention of watching and learning. We have a similar problem in the old bike and car clubs of attracting younger members who want to look after and tinker with the old stuff.

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

I don't know that the question fully encompasses the likely future.

It is possible that we are close to the end of home shop machining using subtractive technologies of any sort, whether manual or cnc. The use of 3D printing in schools is leading to generations that are used to the concept of making stuff by computer. Additive manufacture is easy, fairly mess free and is a concept that comes easily to people. The thought of taking stuff away to leave what you want is a much more difficult concept for many/most people to comprehend. As the technology gets better, people are more likely to use it for little bits that they want but can't be bothered to go out and buy or can't order & have delivered in the next hour.

I do actually wonder if we haven't come close to peak 'stuff'. So much of what used to be done (hearing control, opening curtains, taking photos, video, books, music etc) can all be done with a smart phone or tablet it's seeming to me that there is a reducing need for individual gadgets, book cases, video/ stereo etc that these things may eventually condense into the one item. Your house may end up being for furniture you can flop on and a kitchen & bathroom. No need to clutter with stuff, as all the info-entertainment & memories will be on the phone/tablet which is disposable as it's too complicated to repair. Where, in this, is the need for 'stuff'? It could well be turning people into self-absorbed peacocks, to whom clothes are the only expression of individuality. No. Sorry, that last idea has already happened.

Regards,

Richard.

[Geoff TheasbyParticipant @geofftheasby]

Rather a case of fundamentals being deposed by 'whizzy stuff'. Great fun, but doesn't teach you anything. Log tables destroyed maths in school, so did electronic calculators, then computers, or so it is alleged. If you don't know how a manual lathe works, you can't get the best out of CNC, which is still subtractive machining. The dangers lie in relying upon such technology until it fails. Then your entire TV, music system, computer, diary, house control system is unavailable. I used to feel like this about transistors succeeding valves. Now it's microprocessors. Most of these can not be used unless programmed first, for which you need a computer and an extra box to do it. Until then it is all so much junk, like a car without an MOT. Even if programming (Coding) is not required, I need only hang a few components on a micro, and Bingo! An audio filter, or radio transmitter, or other gadget/test gear. Not that I advocate filing down a round bar to fit in a square hole, but studying electronics yet can't solder? First things first!Geoff

[Roger HartParticipant @rogerhart88496]

Many things seem pretty unfixable however hard you try.

Back when I were a lad I saw the local garage/battery charger/radio mender man repair a (clear) 100watt light bulb by using a capacitor and an old HT battery to 'weld' the broken filament back together after some judicious flicking the bulb around. It worked, for how long I don't know.

I have never had the need to use this wheeze, but maybe one day it will come in handy.

I expect there will still be model engineers around in 100 years, steam will still be popular and probably a few new things too.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Are we the last generation of manual machinist's ??

No Definitely not.

Are we the last generation of untrained hobbyists messing about in sheds then probably not as well but younger people, the Maker brigade which is far bigger than Model engineering may transpose over in later life.

Professional manual machinist, although getting rarer are a different breed to hobbyist's.

When was the last time Brits Rail / British Nuclear Fuels / Rolls Royce / Toyota / Boots [ delete as required ] came knocking on your shed door with a blown out shaft ?

They are always knocking on the doors of professional manual machinists so really the question asked is the wrong one.

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by John Stevenson on 08/03/2017 11:09:41:

They are always knocking on the doors of professional manual machinists so really the question asked is the wrong one.

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But who will be the next manual machinist when you have snuffed it John. – When was the last person you trained to a professional standard.?

Nick

[larry PhelanParticipant @larryphelan54019]

Hi everyone,

Just reading the above posts,yes it seems we do live i a throw away world. When I started out [many moons ago ] you did not throw anything out if it could be repaired,you could not afford to,simple as that. Now the idea seems to be Throw it out,buy a new one.

Some time ago my nabour,a carpenter,asked me if I might be able to repair his saw bench,an old De Walt model [Well he thought it was old at 20 years,I have my home made saw bench for the last 50 years,home made because at the time,I could not afford to buy one ] . Anyway what had happened was that the thread on the shaft to which the blade was fitted had become damaged,he said he loaned it to someone and got it back like that,maybe,maybe not,who knows.He tried to get a replacement part but was told,yes,you guessed it "we no longer have parts for that model,it,s too old " "Can you repair it for me?" "No,it would not be worth while,would be cheaper to buy a new one"

So,it ended up in my shop.I had a look at it and all I could see wrong was that the thread was roughed up,I think the nut may have been forced on on the wrong thread [some people are really thick,and never seem to know when they are doing damage ] By mounting the unit in my lathe,I was able to clean up the damaged part of the shaft and cut a new thread. I was even lucky enough to find a Whitworth nut to suit,in my junk box [never throw out anything ] Result for a little time and effort, the machine is now back up and running.

Sad to say,no body these days wants to dirty their hands or try anything,except play with the buttons on their "Smart Phones " they can,t even fix a puncture in their bike ! I,ve had those brought to me as well.

Not only can they not do anything,they dont want to know how to do anything. It,s all very well having a very Hi Tech machine,but what happens when you need to have it repaired? Do you think you will be able to get parts for it? dont bet on it. My lathe is plain and simple [much like myself ] belt driven,simple motor. Nothing much to go wrong,if I break a belt,so what?,just get a new one,plenty of belts around still. Even if the motor packs up,no big deal,it,s just a common or garden motor. The motor on my homemade bench came from an old water pump,it,s still working away. I look at all these new fancy machines and think,yes very nice,but I think I,ll stick with what I have.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Geoff Theasby on 08/03/2017 11:05:53:

. If you don't know how a manual lathe works, you can't get the best out of CNC, which is still subtractive machining.

.

That's an old wives tale just regurgitated with no though given to what we have in industry at the present time.

Take the current range of CNC machine operators and programmers. They have never seen a manual lathe but they can run rings round any manual lathe worker for production, accuracy and repeatability.

Top of the road from me is a CNC shop just had a big extension and 7 more machines fitted, two of these are 1/2 million pound 5 axis machines. NONE of these guys except one can work manual machines.

Their CNC turner came round one day as I was screwcutting a thread, stood there watching me and said "I'd love to learn how to screwcut " I was amazed and asked him why he couldn't and he admitted he'd never worked a manual lathe.

Jokingly I said "I'd love to screwcut at 1,000 revs " he looked at me and said , "No 2600 revs "

When I asked why 2600 revs it said that was as fast as the lathe went. They run thier machines absolutely flat out and alter the depth of cut to suit the job in hand.

Next time I went up there and was watching the code scrolling down the screens I saw that there were no G01 moves at all it was all G00 and any G02 /G03 moves were done at maximun feed rate of about 10 metres per minute.

So it's just s different ball game and skill set.

[John CoatesParticipant @johncoates48577]

In my business (waste) the consumer credit driven society of the 60's was the start of the throw away society. Every household could have any thing if they bought it on credit. And the marketeers began marketing what they could convince you to want not what you needed. And consumerism became a disease.

I drive my wife nuts as I'm always intercepting things between her and the bin because they are either recyclable, either by me in the workshop or by through our kerbside collections by the council (that's me BTW in the day job).

I've only done one repair job – for a friend who owned a café. His Panini warming machine was broken so I fixed it. I got a bottle of red as a thank you but more enjoyable was working out how to overcome the problem with the tools and materials I had available. Deep joy!

There must be links to the decline of apprenticeships matching the decline in mass employment industries and the cheapness of goods coming from China making fixing stuff that can be cheaply replaced a no brainer. But keeping old machinery going should be justification enough for retaining these problem solving and machining skills

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

No doubt, our numbers will decrease, but manual machinists will not become extinct for a while.

Model Engineering Clubs, the Traction Engine Trust Steam Apprentice scheme, and so on, will nurture a few younger folk into the black arts. Some clubs are fortunate enough to have thriving groups of younger members.

We can all tell tales of how something "beyond repair" can be fixed.

(That s how JS makes his living! More power to his elbow.)

So by bringing in younger folk, and passing on our skills, they learn useful trades, and gain a vast a mount of personal satisfaction from seeing the end product. The JOY of proving wrong the person who says "That can't be fixed"

In 1977, I was told that a master plumber, in the US could name his price, presumably because of the shortage of practical skills. We were told by specialists that a faulty control system needed a 10 Ohm, 10 watt resistor to fix, and there were none around.. Two limey mechanical engineers suggested strapping together ten 100 Ohm 1 watt resistors. The system was up and running within hours!

Must be even worse now, judged by what happens currently in UK.

As long as vintage products are around, there will be a need for people with the ability to mend/ repair/make replacement parts. Having said that, I doubt if our modern all electronic controlled devices will be around.

The plastics will degrade, and the other components will be superceded. ( Unless someone can find a way of replicating the ICs with individual components on pieces of vero board).

At least 3D printing gives the chance to replicate failed plastic components, and engineers practical skills should allow new parts to be machined.

There's hope for the world, yet

Howard

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I don't think there will ever be a last generation of modellers.

Humans will ALWAYS find making models and mechanisms by their own efforts a challenge and a recreation.

I'm sure folk like me with a milling machine etc. don't have the handwork skills of earlier generations.

I'm interested in how new approaches can be brought together to achieve practical results. On a job I'm doing at the moment I've used some 3D printed parts that I could have machined or made in other ways, but 3d printing was head and shoulders the best way to do the bits in question.

I think the hobby will re-energise itself when people start combining embedded electronics, laser cutting,CNC, 3D printing and traditional skills to make mind-blowing models.

We are already starting to see the changes and I'm seeing far more positive responses to new tech on the forum and in my inbox.

Neil

[Colin OsborneParticipant @colinosborne20186]

It's not just machinists or model engineers that seem to be on the decline. It is also happening in other hobbies too.

I'm an Amateur Radio operator, and a similar thing is happening within our hobby. Back in the 70's, when I first started nearly 80% or so of equipment was home brewed. It had to be, for most, the cost was far too much to buy 'off the shelf'.

But now, relatively, prices are more affordable. Yes, I have a mid-range transceiver, a linear amplifier, etc. But I love building my test equipment and doing other projects. Even the modes in radio have changed, it used to be AM and FM, then SSB came in, now it's data modes, SDR and Fusion. There are still many in radio and ME who want to experiment and find out how things work, long may they live and pass their skills on. Surely, in the years to come there will still be that group of folk who have that urge and need to know and build. Perhaps not as many as now or in the past, but it's an in-built feature of us humans to be inquisitive. So all hope is not yet lost!

Colin. MW0OZI

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Nick_G,

There are still young vocalists about who can hold their own against an orchestra without the need for amplification. I regularly hear them at concerts I take part in as a choral singer. So no, it is not dead or dying. How many there is something else entirely as certainly some of the avenues young people had into singing are simply no longer there. And of course, it takes time to train someone to sing properly without damaging the voice.

In respect of DIY, the complexity of modern equipment does mean that the repairability of said item may well be beyond the capability of the amateur to do it. Take, for example, televisions. 40 years ago the vast majority were built from standard, off the shelf, discrete components which meant that the amateur could indeed change a faulty part. Today, that same television is likely to almost entirely built from integrated circuits, special ones at that which means that even if the amateur could find a replacement, actual replacement may well be next to impossible.

Obviously with automation, items can be made much more cheaply, and probably better than by hand assembly. and be more reliable as well. So the incentive to be able to make and repair items is slowly diminishing. In respect of model engineering, I rather think that one of, maybe the main reason, that we do "stuff" is because, a) we can, and b) because we want to. And that latter reason is probably the really important one. I mean, let's face it, why should I spend hours in a draughty garage, getting covered in oily swarf to turn out something that I could probably buy ready made, probably cheaper, and probably better made, in a shop somewhere. The only reason must be because I want to do it myself.

In respect of the younger generation, I think I'm fortunate in that one grandson having been through two years of an agricultural college is quite capable of knocking up items that he needs in his work. His younger brother is now in his third year as a mechanical engineering apprentice for the company making the film for the new banknotes, whilst their sister, aged 10, is showing herself quite capable of doing things herself, albeit with a bit of adult support to provide extra muscle when required, eg recently, her bike saddle came loose. The conversation went like this:

What do you think is wrong?

It looks as if that screw up there might be slack.

How are you going to check it?

Remove this reflector, remove this light.

And so on. She didn't actually need me other than for reassurance.

Regards.

Peter G. Shaw

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