Are we the last generation.?

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

I am a member of a photographic society. Our trouble with youngsters is that, to comply with the regulations of our governing body and of our insurance, anyone under the age of 18 has to have a parent or guardian with them.

What lad ( or lass ) of 17 wants their parents present ?

Roy

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by roy entwistle on 08/03/2017 12:53:50:

I am a member of a photographic society. Our trouble with youngsters is that, to comply with the regulations of our governing body and of our insurance, anyone under the age of 18 has to have a parent or guardian with them.

What lad ( or lass ) of 17 wants their parents present ?

My daughter is 17 and a few weeks ago she and friend took cheap flights and spent a day in Basel, totally self-sufficient.

Neil

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

We also mourn the passing of the high street and pub but if we used them they would thrive, having run out of clothes I had to buy some more and despite my enthusiasm for Internet shopping I find buying clothes does need me to be in a shop. The lady on the checkout asked me if I had enjoyed my shopping? I replied no that is what the Internet is for. The fact that a significant number of people in our hobby do not have a background where they were taught the skills needed must show that the hobby can go on as long as it interests people. Many of the skills can be self learned from books YouTube and forums such as this. CNC though derided by some gives even greater opportunities to create fantastic things that could be impossible manually. We often see things as being deskilled but the skill is just moving to a different place. The man running a CNC machine may have little skill as he is just loading it with parts and keeping it tidy but somewhere there is a setter and programmer. As John says we will probably never not need the mr fixit. The factory I worked in has a maintenance shop that does the sort of stuff that John does as despite the ambition to have a spare part for everything this will never happen. I remember one epic emergency when a hydraulic press broke one of its breakthrough cylinders this stopped the main press line so pressure was on, the lead time for a replacement part was about six weeks so the lads set to to make a new one, a steel blank was sourced from the tool room about 3 feet diameter and 12" thick, after a marathon turning session with the lads working in shifts a breakout cylinder emerged from a lump of steel, I think it spent about 36 hours on the lathe then the bolt circle had to be drilled, after about 2 days of work the press was back in production, this was a 2000 ton lead off press on an automated press line. One of the guys is a welding legend and often had to weld things back together in some very awkward places even the Germans were impressed with his skills.

Mike

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Interesting comment by John Stevenson on Geoff Theabsy's statement that if you don't know how a manual machine works you can't get the best out of CNC. Classic case of looking at opposite sides of the fence.

John, looking at the board side, refers to skilled CNC users getting the best out of the tools provided. Basically following the "book" provided by the tool and machine makers possibly with a bit of judicious modification to some parameters from experience. All well and dandy so long as the book is correct or close enough to correct for minor adjustments to bring things back in line. Trouble is you have outsourced all knowledge of the "physics" involved to the machine and tooling makers so if things seriously don't work as they should not only are you unable to make your own adjustments you also may be unable to properly report what the problem is to the manufacturer's trouble shooter. If said troubleshooter lacks both practical manufacturing experience and fundamental low level experience sorting things can be a frustrating job.

Geoff, looking at the post side, says if you don't have some basic manual machine experience you will never get a feel for exactly what is going on. To quote Robert Heinlein "You need to know what makes the frog jump." How much you have to know and how skilled you have to be when its just support knowledge rather than what you need for the day job is a different matter and open to serious debate. But some level of very basic knowledge is desirable. Not that all folk introduced to it will ever need or be prepared to use it but it does ensure that the door is ajar for those who are prepared to run with it. As always you need a balance of folk in the firm with a range of skills appropriate to their jobs, including a leavening of people who know more than they strictly ought. Back in the day you'd not train a capstan operator as a toolmaker or even a centre lathe operator as such detail knowledge and skills would be wasted. But it sure helped if the charge hand or foreman knew that bit more and was able to stop Pamela Piecework from burning up tools by leaning too hard on the handles.

Back in the days when I worked as a scientist / R&D engineer doing exotic optics related things inexperienced, not long out of university, tech sales and support reps were a major bane. Especially when trying to take components off piste, as I usually was. It was seriously worrying when I, a non-specialist, turned out to know more about how a device I'd never seen worked than the manfacturer's design team! Towards the end I found it absolutely terrifying how little of the fundamentals people actually knew.

Clive.

[Phil H1Participant @philh196021]

Well I hope the new generation come along a lot quicker than they are at the moment.

I went to get a new battery for my watch yesterday because it had stopped. I bought it almost 6 years ago for about £1200 (it is supposed to be a good watch even though it is quartz). Their quote was £450 because they suggested it needed a service!!!????? I declined their very generous offer but they said that if I take it somewhere else, I will lose my manufacturers warranty. What the **** does that mean?

PhilH

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Clive Foster on 08/03/2017 13:28:03:

John, looking at the board side, refers to skilled CNC users getting the best out of the tools provided. Basically following the "book" provided by the tool and machine makers possibly with a bit of judicious modification to some parameters from experience. All well and dandy so long as the book is correct or close enough to correct for minor adjustments to bring things back in line. Trouble is you have outsourced all knowledge of the "physics" involved to the machine and tooling makers so if things seriously don't work as they should not only are you unable to make your own adjustments you also may be unable to properly report what the problem is to the manufacturer's trouble shooter. If said troubleshooter lacks both practical manufacturing experience and fundamental low level experience sorting things can be a frustrating job.

This was my experience with the Dremel 3D printer. It came setup and with software profiles loaded to maker excellent prints with their filament straight out of the box.

Yes it IS possible to change all the settings, but clearly a chunk of the price is paying for the R&D and quality control (the filament needs to be very consistent for this approach to work). A kit build is cheaper and gives you lots more control but you need to be willing to learn what all the different adjustments do (and boy there are a LOT of them!

Neil

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

I'm using gear which is 50-75 years old to do stuff

Anything with electronics in it is dead and gone in 10 to 20 years so I view them as separate but related subjects, both indispensable in their own way

[Geoff TheasbyParticipant @geofftheasby]

John S,

I was referring to hobbyist CNC users. I did work in a factory in which half the space was taken up by two massive CNC machines with ladders up to the business end. They worked to very fine tolerances on parts 2 metres across, which were loaded by crane. Hand-machining experience may not have helped, but then, I would not have been hired to run it. Of course this is in a different league from a manual lathe. You are a better driver if you know how your car works.

Part of the problem with consumer goods is that they are assembled on an automated production line, and the time it takes for someone to diagnose and repair a fault exceeds the value of the device. Sometimes it is simple, in that despite the sophisticated electronics in a modern tv, it is usually the power supply electrolytic capacitors that have failed, and these are quick and cheap to change. To change the whole pcb is costly, as with the pcbs on our mini-lathes, because setting up and running the supply system for a spare board, separately to building them in on the line is slow and unproductive, even if the component cost is low. Remember the Dutch engineer who wanted a BA tap? It was cheaper for him to come to England and buy one over the counter than import one to Holland just for him?

Geoff

[Curtis RutterParticipant @curtisrutter61973]

I'm not the youngest chick in the roost, however at 30 I often feel like it when I've been to exhibitions or popped along to the local club and or at the college class I'm currently undertaking. Still new to the world of engineering and model making but I'm thoroughly enjoying the challenges and the chance to de-stress on my days off (apart from when I fluff it up!)

[Russ BParticipant @russb]

I did convert my mill to CNC but manual machining was far more effective on time and have since removed the lot and shelved it.

I think CNC is great for the production of new parts – including and perhaps especially one off's and decorative or complex parts, but I don't think it's so effective at one off machine operations, typically for repair jobs etc.

I'm 30, I can cast, machine and fabricate in the comfort of my own premise to an acceptable standard, but I don't personally know anyone else who can, bar a couple of welders- do I could as the next generation or am I officially past it already??

I can also say, this kit isn't cheap and requires space. I have a friend who has always wanted to get a lathe, but he's still living at home with mum and dad, as many people are. And when he finally leaves, he'll be welcomed by a £150k-£200k of debt to pay off for the rest of his life and during the early years, 5% interest a year, that £625 to £833 a month just in interest – just to keep his head above water!. And that might just get him a place with enough space for a workshop.

I think there's a wide combination of factors coming in to the lack of "new blood" and I think it's pretty depressing to be fair, I consider myself lucky.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

We might not need a workshop or any skills if we finish up like this. ( The gamesters of Triskellion)

Mike

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

I do think there is new blood but it's hidden from view a lot of the time, as people say, theres always going to be a desire to make things for ourselves,

regardless of technology, not everyone will want to do it but there will always be that few that are just mysteriously compelled to do so.

Theres nothing more accessible to us than our own hands, so hand tools are naturally some of the simplest and readily available means we have.

That said, yes things are changing but it will not disappear, no way.

People rather simplistically think that machines just run themselves with zero human input, that's an incomplete picture because there is a lot of human effort that goes into making the automatic machines work.

What actually happens is we like to show people that it works that way, but actually theres a gigantic portion of behind the scenes work that goes on.

My old boss used to say that he could spend as much money as he likes on a machine, (not a cheapo budget either at £100k each) but all of that is worth "F.A" if he doesn't have any employees to make it happen. It's very true.

My old favourite is the "3D printed car" ford showed off to an American president, if you keep reading you can see further on that actually all the pieces had to be made to fit by people using hand tools to make it so. Was definitely stretching the truth a bit.

Michael W

Edited By Michael-w on 08/03/2017 16:55:44

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by Phil Hale 1 on 08/03/2017 14:02:56:

Well I hope the new generation come along a lot quicker than they are at the moment.

I went to get a new battery for my watch yesterday because it had stopped. I bought it almost 6 years ago for about £1200 (it is supposed to be a good watch even though it is quartz). Their quote was £450 because they suggested it needed a service!!!????? I declined their very generous offer but they said that if I take it somewhere else, I will lose my manufacturers warranty. What the **** does that mean?

PhilH

Does it tell the time any better than my £15 at least 12 year old one? New battery costs £1 every couple of years. They always try to tell me 'you'll never get the back off' but a bit of Model Engineering brute force works. Hammer and pin punch

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

My breakfast reading at the moment is Model Engineer magazines circa 1961.

Back then many thought the hobby was doomed. The end of steam, metrication, and the wholesale loss of traditional skills were bad enough, but the failure of modern youth to take any interest was going to be the killer.

That's our generation they had no faith in!

I would say their fears for the future in 1960 were mostly unjustified – half a century later the hobby is still in remarkably good order. How things are done might change but people will always like making things and sharing ideas with like-minded folk.

Dave

[Colin OsborneParticipant @colinosborne20186]

regardless of technology, not everyone will want to do it but there will always be that few that are just mysteriously compelled to do so.

Theres nothing more accessible to us than our own hands, so hand tools are naturally some of the simplest and readily available means we have.

That said, yes things are changing but it will not disappear, no way

Michael W

I had to smile at what Michael posted. Can you imagine the stone age flint nappers at the dawn of the Bronze Age saying that the art of napping will die out because none of our youngsters want to carry on the skill!

They may have been right, but even in this day and age, thousands of years later, there are still folk who are skilled in the mystic art. I'm thinking in particular of Phil Harding of 'Time Team', his enthusiasm and appreciation of finding a finely crafted flint arrow head never ceases to amaze me.

In a few thousand years from now I bet there will still be someone in a dark, cold, damp workshop bending over an old Myford lathe churning out things nobody needs!

Colin.

[vintagengineerParticipant @vintagengineer]

I am a volunteer engineer for REMAP and some of our clients are stunned when we say to them, that we will make the gadget that they need!

[Stuart BridgerParticipant @stuartbridger82290]

It's a very interesting question, with a number of factors.

The decline of apprenticeships since the 80's and 90's has removed a lot of skill base. Also the drive for everyone to go to University was one of biggest mistakes this country ever made. I was lucky to get a a very good technical apprenticeship. The decline in school workshops hasn't helped although I do hear that my local school has a well equipped workshop.

Our hobby has always been expensive to get up and running, which is why it tends to be taken up in later life. Time is another concern, we are all leading busier lives.

That said I took my 10V into work and got a real interest, it inspired one of my colleagues to get into 3D printing.

Personally my reason for getting back to manual machining was that the modern world is so transient and fast moving. I work in the IT industry, where there is very little legacy or permanence. If something you work on lasts more than 5 years it is unusual. So getting back to basics and making something that lasts means something. We were the first apprentice year to do G code programming in 1980. I found it fascinating at the time, and could still watch a CNC machine running with awe. But the last I want to do after staring at screen all day is to work on producing tool path code by whatever means.

It is horses for courses, some are happy with CNC and others are content to stay manual.

I do see an opportunity for the 3D printing makers to take on some more traditional skills.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Geoff Theasby on 08/03/2017 15:19:32:

John S,

I was referring to hobbyist CNC users.

Geoff

.

Geoff, same criteria still applies.

Ketan at ARC sells the turnkey KX1 and KX3 milling machines which are meant for hobby use as opposed to small production work although some do get used for that.

As I was heavily involved with these machines with both Sieg and ARC I often get called on to deliver and install a machine.

Usually this is because the buyer is elderly or suffers from a medical problem that stops then handling a heavy machine.

Often it's because the shed or workshop is at the end of a garden up 19 steps and 5 flower beds.

The vast majority of these users only have this one mill so they have no previous knowledge of manual milling.

Many are newly retired from a non industrial job, like office work where they are very familiar with computers but not machining.

As part of the install they also get a few hours tuition and the manual for the machine which was written in house gives them a couple of examples to do. One is the Sieg Logo were anyone with a piece of MDF and an engraving cutter or centre drill for that matter can produce their first part, and they all do just that.

I accept it's a different learning curve but it the owner knows no different then it just replaces the learning curve they would have had on a manual machine but with some of the pitfalls removed like a constant feed so they don't jerk and break cutters.

I am not saying that CNC is the be all and end all as I know it isn't, I work full time at jobbing engineering and probable use a CNC less than 10% of the time but when it is used it really saves time.

All I want to do is debunk the oft quoted saying that you need to manual mill before you can CNC mill. The truth is there is no truth at all behind that statement. For a start the machines are so different. A KX1 can run the spindle with a small cutter at 7,000 rpm whereas something like an X3 tops out at 1900 revs so how can you even compare speeds and feeds between these to machines ?

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

It's in the genes

I was brought up to Jockville from Brummie at 3 months old and lived the Scots life of bevvy and working then ended up completely absorbed in ME while those around me stare at Sky sports and drinking

I'm a bit of anomaly up here, there are definitely some of us around but it's nothing like in Engerland

My dad is pure midlands brummie, cricket etc (cricket ugh!)

Set up for life now, will never be bored ever again and the telly can go jump

We cannot escape our genetic destiny

[Owain SamuelParticipant @owainsamuel55325]

Are we the last generation of manual machinists? No. The skills may be rarer, but they're definitely out there. I'm 36 and drive lathes, mills and so on for a living repairing steam railway engines. We've four apprentices at work, all under 21, all are being trained on manual machines. I would agree about the maker movement, it's a lot bigger than I realised.

Speaking personally, so long as anything that you can't buy parts off the shelf for is trundling around, be it a Burrell road locomotive, a black five, foden lorry, BSA motorbike or a Sherman tank, somewhere they'll be someone in a shed, rattling out parts. If the owner doesn't have the skills but does have a chequebook, then that'll be someone like me, probably using a mixture of manual and CNC machines.

In case noones realised, I don't buy the 'all the skills are dying out' wail. They're changing with the times (such as set up a ward capstan lathe for a production run, against program a CNC lathe), but they're not extinct, nor ever will be.

Owain

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

Posted by Roger Hart on 08/03/2017 11:07:52:

Many things seem pretty unfixable however hard you try.

Back when I were a lad I saw the local garage/battery charger/radio mender man repair a (clear) 100watt light bulb by using a capacitor and an old HT battery to 'weld' the broken filament back together after some judicious flicking the bulb around. It worked, for how long I don't know.

I have never had the need to use this wheeze, but maybe one day it will come in handy.

I expect there will still be model engineers around in 100 years, steam will still be popular and probably a few new things too.

Pointless when my son would show you how to solder a string of LEDs together for a better light

Technology moves on & people adapt to suit. I cannot spin wool & would not want to nor would i need to, but I wish I understood how LEDs worked. Do we need to repair un-reparable cars at home. Older generation only think we do because they used to repair their old ones & get irritated that they cannot do the same on new ones. Send them to the local garage.

We do not have to worry that certain skills are no longer attained. They are not necessarily needed in the work place. As a result these skills will not be taken back to the home in the same way. Just because someone can turn a widget to a tolerance of a thou it may be that it make no difference because a robot can do it to half a thou. What is needed is an operator to programme the robot.

So the skill that is taken home is a "programming" one not a "making" one. So if the WIFI throws a wobbly it will be solved in an instance !!!  but if the handle falls off the kitchen appliance then no hope.

Furthermore, I think that the forum may be a little short sighted in its vision. "Makers" are not just people who can turn a lump of steel in a lathe. As an example –we will still have carpenters & bricklayers who can build their own extensions. The DIY industry is still worth £ms . One should not forget all the jobs that people do & things people make quite successfully at home with quite limited tools.

So all is not totally lost & the internet will always help people to undertake those extra tasks

 

 

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 09/03/2017 09:03:20

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Sam, I can lend you a spinning wheel, and show you how to use it, maybe a new jersey for next winter.

There are still people using treadle lathes today, and in one form or another people have made models for hundreds of years, and I can't see it stopping.

Ian S C

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

Ady1 may be on to something with the area you live in. I am not far from Brum and it's industrial heritage has rubbed off on me. Plenty of other places up and down the country are the same. It is heartening to see the likes of JCB running a traditional apprentice training school again. I must agree that programing a CNC machine is another skill set equally as good as learning manual skills. In my working life I learnt to use all the manual stuff then went on to use CNC EDM ( spark erosion) and wire EDM machines.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Industry does not do things for fun, we do. Some people like CNC and the rest of the Hi tech others enjoy more ancient techniques. I work with a bloke who like to run a pole lathe for wood turning. So long as there are manual machines to be had people will use them. On a more practical level how do you imagine you would get by without some manual capability. Some perhaps many tasks are going to take longer. Is there any one on this forum who has a totally CNC workshop?

regards Martin

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

Since the sun is shining today and the temperature is into double figures I decided to clean the pond filter. As I put everything back in place the filter outlet hose tail snapped off. I decided the best option was to make one from some stainless steel. More fun than buying a new one and quicker as well. I found some 30 mm diameter bar an chucked it up. I used my CNC lathe with manual data input to make the part. I did not check when I started but I think it took about 30 minutes to make from picking up the bar to the point where it was finished. I can't imagine being able to buy one that fast.

Apart from the computer controlling the movement of the machine under manual instruction no other computer input was involved. So the question is does this count as manual machining or CNC?

Martin

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