ArcEurotrade machine deliveries to Switzerland

[Mark HuskieParticipant @markhuskie41991]

[Mark HuskieParticipant @markhuskie41991]

Dear all,

I have been doing what seems like endless research into which mill to buy, after much effort and agonising I finally decided to buy a Sieg SX 2.7 from Arc, I logged onto their website to see how much the shipping costs to Switzerland would be, I received the message that there was no shipping method available and that I should contact Arc, this duly done I received a return email stating that Arc would not ship machinery to Switzerland, they would however deliver other parts.

I was rather taken back by this and am still at a loss to understand why!

So after much discussions with the Chancellor of the Exchequer (AKA her indoors)

I have decided to order a WABECO F1200, maybe in a different league ( hopefully not only the price !) but with recent events it brings to mind the fact that life is too short so what the heck,

Best wishes to all, Mark

[Oily RagParticipant @oilyrag]

Seems strange that they are willing to ship 'other parts' but not a machine! Has anyone asked them for a machine to be broken down and shipped? That would seem to get around that problem.

However I am sure you will not be disappointed in the Wabeco, Looks like your getting the genuine item rather than a Chinacom clone.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I think Ketan (owner of ARC) has posted before about not shipping machines overseas, he may add something here.

Is there not another distributor in Europe you could try, Sieg list them here

[ChrisBParticipant @chrisb35596]

I don't see why Arc should not ship overseas if the buyer really wanted to. I bought my lathe and milling machine from Warco and had them delivered all the way to Malta. Their shipping quote was too high so I arranged for shipping myself through a local shipping groupage company which specialises in bulky goods. I'm sure you could do the same if you waive them off responsability for anything happening during transportation.

I think Arc are more worried about aftersales, and I would understand that.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

[This posting has been removed]

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Hi Mark,

Here is what we said in our email to you:

———————————–

' Unfortunately, after speaking with our freight providers, we are not able to deliver machines to Switzerland.

We are able to consider orders for machine accessories and tooling.

Please accept our apologies that we have been unable to assist you on this occasion.'

——————————–

ARC failed to elaborate on 'after speaking with our freight providers'…. so here are some more details..

We do not ship machines regularly to Switzerland, so we invited two quotes. One declined, and one quoted GB£450.00 + GB£60.00 for processing through Swiss customs. These quotes for Switzerland are excluding VAT. Also, there would have been local import duty/taxes (whatever they may be) to be paid by you on entry into Switzerland, as Switzerland is not part of EU for 'free circulation' of goods. We queried this quote as it seems expensive, and were told – it is correct.

Keeping this in mind, the matter was brought to my attention. I felt that it was too expensive. Plus, based on past experience of things going 'pair shaped' specifically for machine shipments to Switzerland:

• certain issues with Swiss customs delays due to customers understanding/mis-understaning/expectations of Swiss customs procedures
• transit damage to certain smaller machines which were sent through premium carriers such as TNT/Fedex, specifically to Switzerland
• Last machine shipment was held up by Swiss customs for two weeks without any good reason

For ARC, the above problems are unique to Switzerland. We do not have the same problems to any other EU destinations, including Romania, Norway and Sweden – destinations to which we ship these and other machines – big or small, regularly.

For Switzerland, we have to check what the situation is, at the time of enquiry. Based on all of the above, I decided to decline your order, so you got the email as you did. Perhaps the sender of the email from ARC should have clarified with more detail, but chances are that either way, you would have been unhappy with the response.

As you say, life is too short. Apologies once again for the inconvenience. I hope you enjoy your new purchase of WABECO.

Ketan at ARC.

[speelwerkParticipant @speelwerk]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 08/06/2020 12:39:53:

• certain issues with Swiss customs delays due to customers understanding/mis-understaning/expectations of Swiss customs procedures
• transit damage to certain smaller machines which were sent through premium carriers such as TNT/Fedex, specifically to Switzerland
• Last machine shipment was held up by Swiss customs for two weeks without any good reason

Certainly of topic but could not resist since it is a small pratical example of what is in store for a no-deal Brexit. Niko.

[Mark HuskieParticipant @markhuskie41991]

Posted by Barrie Lever on 08/06/2020 12:12:51:

Mark

Did you confirm your order on the Wabeco yet?

It is certainly worth upgrading to the ISO 30 spindle if the order is still open, I have a Wabeco 1210 and it is better with the ISO 30 spindle than the previous MT2.

The ISO 30 tool holders have a lot more cross section and are thus stiffer, they also go back in a repeatable position in the Z axis, and release easier than MT 2 or 3 .

There is a very high quality supplier of ISO 30 ER tool holders in Germany, they are called Kemmler, the holders are 51 euro's each plus VAT.

Having said about releasing tool holders, the Wabeco has a very clever release system whichever spindle you have ordered, no hammering or stuck tool holders.

 

Where in Switzerland are you?

Regards

Barrie

Edited By Barrie Lever on 08/06/2020 12:15:52

 

Hi Barry,

 

Many thanks for the information, the order has not been confirmed yet but my Lathe uses MT3 so I will be able share collets, chucks etc. This pushed me to pay extra for the WABECO MT3 option, however If I were starting again I would definitely go the more rigid route!

I live just outside of Lausanne, are you in Switzerland!

Best wishes and thanks again, Mark

 

 

Edited By JasonB on 08/06/2020 13:03:43

[Mark HuskieParticipant @markhuskie41991]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 08/06/2020 12:39:53:

Hi Mark,

Here is what we said in our email to you:

———————————–

' Unfortunately, after speaking with our freight providers, we are not able to deliver machines to Switzerland.

We are able to consider orders for machine accessories and tooling.

Please accept our apologies that we have been unable to assist you on this occasion.'

——————————–

ARC failed to elaborate on 'after speaking with our freight providers'…. so here are some more details..

We do not ship machines regularly to Switzerland, so we invited two quotes. One declined, and one quoted GB£450.00 + GB£60.00 for processing through Swiss customs. These quotes for Switzerland are excluding VAT. Also, there would have been local import duty/taxes (whatever they may be) to be paid by you on entry into Switzerland, as Switzerland is not part of EU for 'free circulation' of goods. We queried this quote as it seems expensive, and were told – it is correct.

Keeping this in mind, the matter was brought to my attention. I felt that it was too expensive. Plus, based on past experience of things going 'pair shaped' specifically for machine shipments to Switzerland:

• certain issues with Swiss customs delays due to customers understanding/mis-understaning/expectations of Swiss customs procedures
• transit damage to certain smaller machines which were sent through premium carriers such as TNT/Fedex, specifically to Switzerland
• Last machine shipment was held up by Swiss customs for two weeks without any good reason

For ARC, the above problems are unique to Switzerland. We do not have the same problems to any other EU destinations, including Romania, Norway and Sweden – destinations to which we ship these and other machines – big or small, regularly.

For Switzerland, we have to check what the situation is, at the time of enquiry. Based on all of the above, I decided to decline your order, so you got the email as you did. Perhaps the sender of the email from ARC should have clarified with more detail, but chances are that either way, you would have been unhappy with the response.

As you say, life is too short. Apologies once again for the inconvenience. I hope you enjoy your new purchase of WABECO.

Ketan at ARC.

Hi Ketan,

Thanks for replying, In hindsight I feel that I should have fully quoted your rely so sorry for my omission. However. as you rightly stated a quote of £500 would probably have not made my day

Shipping to a country outside of the EU is full of surprises, I guess that the UK may get a taste of this once the details of BREXIT are finally signed off, hopefully it will not be too painful for either side!

Best wishes to all, Mark

[Oily RagParticipant @oilyrag]

Mark,

As you are in Switzerland have you looked for an Aciera F2 or F3 mill? Or perhaps a Luthy mill? I would have thought you are in the right place to obtain, albeit second hand, probably one of the finest small universal mills that has ever been made!

[Mark HuskieParticipant @markhuskie41991]

Posted by Oily Rag on 08/06/2020 11:39:54:

Seems strange that they are willing to ship 'other parts' but not a machine! Has anyone asked them for a machine to be broken down and shipped? That would seem to get around that problem.

However I am sure you will not be disappointed in the Wabeco, Looks like your getting the genuine item rather than a Chinacom clone.

Good afternoon,

I understand more now that Ketan has clarified the situation regarding freight costs, I guess parts fall under certain weight limits so therefore are easier to deal with.

I will let everyone know how the WABECO turns out, still working out the details of the order but it should be ordered by the end of the day,

Best wishes, Mark

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

[This posting has been removed]

[Mark HuskieParticipant @markhuskie41991]

Posted by Oily Rag on 08/06/2020 12:59:43:

Mark,

As you are in Switzerland have you looked for an Aciera F2 or F3 mill? Or perhaps a Luthy mill? I would have thought you are in the right place to obtain, albeit second hand, probably one of the finest small universal mills that has ever been made!

Good afternoon,

Yes I live in the Lausanne area, I have looked for a second hand Aciera but the ones I found were either in dire need of overhauling or were in great condition with prices that made my poor eyes water! The same was true when I looked for a small Swiss lathe, Schaublin lathes can be found but were not in my (or her) budgets!

Best wishes, Mark

[Mark HuskieParticipant @markhuskie41991]

Posted by Barrie Lever on 08/06/2020 13:02:23:

Mark

I often wish I was In Switzerland !!

I holiday there sometimes in the summer and occasionally go to Lausanne for activities relating to the FAI.

I will be travelling to Lausanne again soon (2021) for committee work relating to International aeromodelling at the FAI.

I stay at the Hotel du Port, very close to the fountains by the paddle steamer jetty.

Have another think about ISO 30 the benefits are good and you are only talking about a couple of extra tool holders really.

Best Regards

Barrie

Hi Barrie,

I know the hotel and the area very well, let me know when you are in town and maybe we can meet up for a drink,.

For the ISO 30 I will indeed take a closer look, thanks again for the information and hope to see you one day in Sunny Switzerland!

Best wishes, Mark

[Oily RagParticipant @oilyrag]

Quote:-

"…I have looked for a second hand Aciera but the ones I found were either in dire need of overhauling or were in great condition with prices that made my poor eyes water! The same was true when I looked for a small Swiss lathe, Schaublin lathes can be found but were not in my (or her) budgets!"

Ahh yes! but as you said life is short! and point out the resale value – they will only ever go up in value!

Luthy are also a rare and good machine which no one seems to know about, Aciera's are well known so their price reflects their heritage. I bought a Luthy Universal mill with Horizontal/ Vertical/high speed vert head and slotter, swivel and tilt table for less than £1K. It was every bit as good as an Aciera F3.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Oily Rag on 08/06/2020 11:39:54:

Seems strange that they are willing to ship 'other parts' but not a machine! Has anyone asked them for a machine to be broken down and shipped? That would seem to get around that problem.

However I am sure you will not be disappointed in the Wabeco, Looks like your getting the genuine item rather than a Chinacom clone.

Breaking down a machine option for smaller machines has been tried for Switzerland, but they still get damaged.

Regarding the comments in your second paragraph, how do you know if Wabeco is a 'genuine' item and/or SX2.7 a clone, or if it is any better or worse than what Mark is considering to buy?. If you don't have anything useful to say, please avoid making prejudicial comments. I don't think that you or your comments are funny.

Ketan at ARC.

[Mark HuskieParticipant @markhuskie41991]

Posted by JasonB on 08/06/2020 11:49:13:

I think Ketan (owner of ARC) has posted before about not shipping machines overseas, he may add something here.

Is there not another distributor in Europe you could try, Sieg list them here

Hi,

thanks for the reply, I am pretty sure that I could have found another distributor but I tend to do a lot of "homework" regarding problems and reputations of dealers and distributors hence my original decision to go with ARC. As I thought that I had already "put this baby to bed". I lack both the time and courage to start over. WABECO also seem decent to deal with so I went with them, maybe not the most logical of argument, certainly from a financial point of view, but it works for me

best wishes, Mark

[Oily RagParticipant @oilyrag]

Ketan,

I do seem to have hit a raw nerve with you here. My comments were on the basis that these mills (Wabeco and Sieg) are basically both clones of the Emco FB2 mill. As the Emco business has now fractured into disparate groups and that Pro Machine are the agents for Emco as well as Wabeco it follows that the later has a direct lineage from the original Emco FB2. The Sieg is, as we all know, a Chinese version.

Yes, I make my comments, as indeed we all do on this forum, from a position of prejudice because that is how we form opinions. Do not be blind to your own prejudice though as you make your comments from the position of having a business directly involved with the sale of the Sieg machine. I fully respect your position and understand that you are a very successful dealer with an excellent reputation in the marketplace. You have undoubtedly had dealings with many factories in China as revealed in past discussions and know the problems of the 'cultural' divide in business procedure between the 'West' and China.

I for my part lived for 9 years in China (2006 to 2015) working for a JV (Joint Venture) UK/Chinese company in the role of assisting in localisation of product into their market. So I do know quite a bit about the machinations of Chinese businesses and the drive they apply to cost cutting at the expense of perceived quality and longevity of the product. It was deemed essential to have engineers on the ground in China to prevent backsliding on quality of the product in all aspects of materials, processes and assembly.

I respect also that the current world political situation 'viz a viz' China is also bringing into focus the reliance on China as a manufacturing area where people are increasingly concerned about the impact this may have for the future. I suspect that some of your ire with my opinions is therefore your inevitable concern this may have on your business where people talk about a boycott of Chinese goods.

If I have offended you I unreservedly apologise – it was not my intention to directly attack you, purely, I stated opinions in a free forum which I do not think merited your vitriolic response. Let us put this behind us and enjoy the hobby we all love so much.

Regards, Martin

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

[This posting has been removed]

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Oily Rag on 08/06/2020 15:48:21:

Ketan,

If I have offended you I unreservedly apologise – it was not my intention to directly attack you, purely, I stated opinions in a free forum which I do not think merited your vitriolic response. Let us put this behind us and enjoy the hobby we all love so much.

Regards, Martin

No problem Martin. Happy to put it to bed.

Ketan at ARC.

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