ARC – PayPal and Credit Cards

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 07/08/2014 13:24:34:

Just wondering – do French debit cards work on your system?

Russell.

Overseas VISA or Mastercard debit or credit cards work on most international payment systems, including ours. However, I believe that with overseas cards – debit or credit, unfortunately the payment system will automatically apply a surcharge of £1.00, due to a variety of reasons related to international banking transactions.

If a person is using an 'e-card' similar to one described by JES earlier, things can get a bit tricky, because form a payment point of view, no-one knows the customer.

Every payment processing system has 'transaction security checking' facility. Depending on who is the issuer of the e-card, the transaction security checking gives deferent levels of security check, depending on how much access the overseas bank allows the 'system which is making the inquiry'. Less access = higher risk = higher fraud score. If the fraud score is low and if the buyer is validated by his bank, then the buyers bank gives an 'electronic guarantee' for the payment.

In theory, all banks have signed a universal agreement to allow access for checking of risk. However, due to constitutional and regulatory reasons in place in overseas countries, certain information access is denied.

If a financial institution other than the customers bank issues an e-card…like buying such a product over the counter in a European supermarket against cash, or over the web from a non-bank provider, the attached risk for the seller considering to accept the payment can be variable or high. In such situation, the security gateway – Sage Pay – in our case, returns a very high fraud score, allowing us to make a decision on the risk, which is not guaranteed by anyone. It is difficult to make a positive decision in the buyers favor in such cases, so generally we tend to decline such transactions which provide no 'comfort' – payment guarantee, and high risk.

Ketan at ARC.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Just an observation on Ebay, I don't know if it applies to engineering products, but I have recently looked for some OO-gauge railway products – scenic products such as flock and Ratio signal kits. In both cases, I was able to find the genuine products being sold more cheaply direct from real shops, and the postage charges were less too.

Mind you anything with 'model railway' associated with it seems to demand silly prices.

Neil

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Have you ever looked at, 'Scalescenes' Neil ? Quite a range of card models and all printable for a fee.

Clive

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Roderick Jenkins on 07/08/2014 13:52:15:

Posted by Ketan Swali on 07/08/2014 12:00

Also, for regular visitors to our site, we will be enabling the 'remember my card details' option in a similar way to Amazon. This information will not be held by us. It will be held by Sage Pay – the security gateway service provider, which is an independent body.

Well that's good news, the only reason I use Paypal at ARC is to avoid having to type in the CC number. Using a credit card does give you some measure of protection, even below the £100 barrier. Paying a pound doesn't seem much to get the protection or you can trust the vendor – no problem with ARC. Interesting though that IKEA used to charge extra for CC use but no longer do so.

Personally I put all my spending through an incentive card and pay it off in full every month, thus taking advantage of both the traders and the those who pay interest on their credit cards – that's capitalism for you.

Rod

Thanks Rod,

In IKEAs case, I guess that the banks eventually came begging to them for business, due to the volume they push through the system. So, I guess that IKEA either told the processor what they would pay, or, they became the processor, in a way similar to TESCO.

Ketan.

[JESParticipant @jes]

Overseas VISA or Mastercard debit or credit cards work on most international payment systems, including ours. However, I believe that with overseas cards – debit or credit, unfortunately the payment system will automatically apply a surcharge of £1.00, due to a variety of reasons related to international banking transactions.

If a person is using an 'e-card' similar to one described by JES earlier, things can get a bit tricky, because form a payment point of view, no-one knows the customer.

Every payment processing system has 'transaction security checking' facility. Depending on who is the issuer of the e-card, the transaction security checking gives deferent levels of security check, depending on how much access the overseas bank allows the 'system which is making the inquiry'. Less access = higher risk = higher fraud score. If the fraud score is low and if the buyer is validated by his bank, then the buyers bank gives an 'electronic guarantee' for the payment.

In theory, all banks have signed a universal agreement to allow access for checking of risk. However, due to constitutional and regulatory reasons in place in overseas countries, certain information access is denied.

If a financial institution other than the customers bank issues an e-card…like buying such a product over the counter in a European supermarket against cash, or over the web from a non-bank provider, the attached risk for the seller considering to accept the payment can be variable or high. In such situation, the security gateway – Sage Pay – in our case, returns a very high fraud score, allowing us to make a decision on the risk, which is not guaranteed by anyone. It is difficult to make a positive decision in the buyers favor in such cases, so generally we tend to decline such transactions which provide no 'comfort' – payment guarantee, and high risk.

Ketan at ARC.

In the case of my e-card it is personal and I enter my name etc as with a normal card so hopefully it would be treated as a normal card

JES

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by JES on 07/08/2014 14:49:17:

In the case of my e-card it is personal and I enter my name etc as with a normal card so hopefully it would be treated as a normal card

JES

JES,

I agree, because your bank has issued you with the e-card, and hopefully the payment system recognises this. But as it is an overseas card, I think the system will put on a £1.00 surcharge. In general, overseas cards cost more to process.

Thanks, Ketan at ARC.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Clive,

Wandering off topic here, but i print out and make my own card buildings.

Neil

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Ketan

Thank you for your comprehensive reply to my post of yesterday. It makes complete sense and I am quite happy with the options that you give. My reason for setting up a Pay Pal account initially was solely for ebay purchases. I have since used it elsewhere as it is an "easy option" – I will think again about that in view of the information that you have given.

I have the greatest regard for ARC – both for service and products. I must look through the cat. again – I'm sure there must be something that I need !

I just think it a pity that there are those out there ( we all know who they are!) who, for as long as I can remember, have owed you money and STILL insist that it is the other way around.

Regards

Norman

[RobboParticipant @robbo]

I can remember, 40 odd years ago, it was quite common to be charged a premium for using a credit card.

Have you taxed your car online? DVLA charge £2.50 for using a credit card.

I wondered where the banks were funding their card offers. Now I know, squeezing some poor bugger for the dosh. This is Thatcher's dream land.

[Jon GibbsParticipant @jongibbs59756]

Hi Ketan,

Thank you. I'll be more than happy to use my debit card over the phone.

Jon

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Robbo on 07/08/2014 15:42:12:

I can remember, 40 odd years ago, it was quite common to be charged a premium for using a credit card.

Have you taxed your car online? DVLA charge £2.50 for using a credit card.

I wondered where the banks were funding their card offers. Now I know, squeezing some poor bugger for the dosh. This is Thatcher's dream land.

Robbo,

The cost/charge of £2.50 is very close to the 'real average' cost for processing a credit card transaction (not debit card), give or take 50p, after taking into account WorldPay, SagePay, our own banks charges. So, I hope that the £1.00 surcharge is reasonable, even though I am aware that this would penalise buyers with low value orders wishing to pay by credit card.

Big companies, or companies with a monopoly/semi-monopoly product can charge £2.50 without question, or without thinking. However, when we are selling 'common products' in a global competitive market, we do not enjoy the same privileges as they do.

Ketan.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

As a comment – All the holiday and airline companies I deal with have a flat 2% Credit Card charge (or it's free with a Debit Card) and most times (when the kitty is in good nick) I pay by DC to avoid the CC surcharge – which can mount up on overseas trips. I like to pay off my credit card every month, so this only brings the 'cash-out' forward 2 or 3 weeks on average, so is not really such an issue for me.

Here (with ARC) I have a simpler choice – pay by Debit Card or pay a £1.00 flat charge to use a Credit Card. I suppose this is a >2% fee for purchases under £50 but then it reduces with anything over it. It seems quite fair to me and I wish the travel company we use most often offered us the same deal.

I've been a customer of ARC for some years now, as have both of my sons in fact.

Of course, my sons have no interest in anything "engineering". They only use ARC because their thoughtful Dad sends them Birthday (& Christmas) present links which saves them the dreadful trouble of worrying about what to buy the poor old guy. These helpful hints do seem very much appreciated and certainly save me the deeply uncomfortable hypocrisy involved in thanking other relatives for things like DVD box-sets of old US rom-com series that I am never, ever going to watch! (Although the lady at the Charity shop always seems quite pleased ….)

Anyway, I digress – (unusually for me) – most of our purchases are quite small (I don't like to skin the boys too much) but I've always been very happy with the goods, prices and service received. I think the £1.00 CC deal is very fair but (being "careful" )  I will probably just use my Debit Card instead. However, I doubt my sons will even notice any 'small print'…because they are not that "careful" yet – (and apparently it's not that fashionable these days either).

However, whilst I'm here, there's just one more thing I should also say…….

ARC – best website, reasonable prices, good quality and above all – excellent service.

Very well done Ketan & Thank You.

from another of your satisfied customers (and his sons)

Edited By IanT on 07/08/2014 16:34:38

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by IanT on 07/08/2014 16:32:48:

ARC – best website, reasonable prices, good quality and above all – excellent service.

Very well done Ketan & Thank You.

+1 for that.

Russell.

[Andrew EvansParticipant @andrewevans67134]

Ketan – i do not understand why you (or any other merchant) would make a discreet charge for a specific payment method. Of course you incur a small cost for a credit card but there is also a (probably much higher) cost for other payment types – what if I turned up at your premises with a carrier bag full of cash to pay for a new milling machine surely that would cost you much more than if I used my credit card.

with the advance of the credit card as a payment method merchants have saved money because they don't have the costs of cash and cheque handling and the attendant security and hassle that goes with it

Makes it simpler for the consumer if these charges are effectively hidden in the price of the goods. I know people who are dubious about internet shopping in general but do it because they feel they have some protection from using a credit card. In fact that is the only reason they have a credit card, they don't use it to borrow with. I think this tends to apply to the older generation who grew up in a cash world. I also know people who decide to buy an item and then when a 'hidden surcharge ' is added change their mind and shop elsewhere.

Andy

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Andrew Evans on 08/08/2014 08:57:07:

Ketan – i do not understand why you (or any other merchant) would make a discreet charge for a specific payment method. Of course you incur a small cost for a credit card but there is also a (probably much higher) cost for other payment types – what if I turned up at your premises with a carrier bag full of cash to pay for a new milling machine surely that would cost you much more than if I used my credit card.

with the advance of the credit card as a payment method merchants have saved money because they don't have the costs of cash and cheque handling and the attendant security and hassle that goes with it

Makes it simpler for the consumer if these charges are effectively hidden in the price of the goods. I know people who are dubious about internet shopping in general but do it because they feel they have some protection from using a credit card. In fact that is the only reason they have a credit card, they don't use it to borrow with. I think this tends to apply to the older generation who grew up in a cash world. I also know people who decide to buy an item and then when a 'hidden surcharge ' is added change their mind and shop elsewhere.

Andy

Hi Andy,

It costs us a lot more to accept credit cards – average across all transactions: £2.50 per transaction, as advised earlier. This incorporates: high fee because it is a web transaction, increased % because lot of the credit cards which are being used on our site give insentives to the user, a security check gateway (Sage Pay) charge, a % of PCI compliance fee, a % of SSL security fee, our banks acceptance fee. Main large element of the fee is the one slapped on by the credit card issuer. Rest are nominal and acceptable.

Debit card: average current costs across all transactions: 50p, inclusive of all of the above fees.

Cash: average current costs 30p to 40p per £100.00 banked. It is rare that we get large cash amounts over the counter, but that is still between 0.3% to 0.4%. So much cheaper than Credit Cards.

Cheques/Postal Orders: Average 50p to bank. Not many people use this method now, so soon we will stop this method of payment.

PayPal: At present we wish to avoid due to security reasons

I explained in an earlier post why I am reluctant to hide/bury the extra cost, especially as a higher percentage of customers who buy from us already use debit cards. I understand what you are saying in general about the sense of security associated with the use of credit cards for the older generation. However, we are getting a growing customer base which is younger, adopting the cheapest credit card deals out there, for good reason. At the same time, they are also looking around for the best price when it comes to products. So, I have to try and draw a balance somewhere, even though I personally don't like the idea of putting on a £1.00 surcharge. As I said earlier, I do not know how this will develop.

Regarding the 'hidden surcharge'. On our website, before the customers proceeds to the payment screen, the surcharge statement will be made, before the customer 'clicks' on the pay button, to proceed to Sage Pay – payment screen. If he/she is not happy to accept this, as I am sure there are customers who don't want to pay the surcharge, they simply will not proceed to the next screen to pay.

Ketan at ARC.

[Martin 100Participant @martin100]

I can see why a retailer would prefer to avoid Paypal especially with their arbitary locking of accounts and removal / reversal of funds from sellers / retailers (documented and widely mentioned elsewhere) Especially since their operation appears to be wholly outside *any* UK financial regulation.

But as a buyer I often prefer Paypal because I have had credit card details stolen on at least two occasions and maybe more when the security at separate online retailers was compromised. I’ve also had them repeatedly stolen (four times in around 15 months) by a petrol station too (case proven beyond any doubt in my eyes although sadly with no prosecution) However using a credit card direct with a retailer is the only way I get any protection as a buyer, until there is a test case Paypal are nothing but a handler of a ‘cash’ advance / payment processor.

My debit card along with that of many others is a Maestro one and hence with zero protection under their UK T&C. (only VISA issued debit cards carry any buyer protection last I checked)

I have also experienced Paypal customer service (as a buyer in receipt of counterfeit software bought via Ebay) a few years back and it was truly dire. I was dealing with their Dublin office (only by FAX FFS!) and going round in circles for days getting nowhere, asking for the UK address at which to serve court documents was the thing that finally worked.

Charging a customer extra for using a credit card seems petty IMHO and might even put off new customers, I’d just bury it in the retail cost of the goods like almost every other retailer does.

P.S. The DVLA as mentioned above *have* to be an exception and impose a surcharge because the funds they receive are fully prescribed in law, they cannot hand over part of the transaction to an external party and less than the prescribed amount to the treasury.

PPS Would still use ARC regardless of any charges, their customer service is just how it should be even when the customer cocks up!

Edited By Martin 100 on 08/08/2014 13:37:32

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The other way to do it would be to loose the charge in the retail prices but allow a £1 discount for non CC purchases. All the MEs would be knocking down your door as they like a bargain

J

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by JasonB on 08/08/2014 13:36:05:

The other way to do it would be to loose the charge in the retail prices but allow a £1 discount for non CC purchases. All the MEs would be knocking down your door as they like a bargain

J

LOL….now thats an interesting idea.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Introduction to Bitcoin.

Martin.

[jaCK HobsonParticipant @jackhobson50760]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 07/08/2014 12:00:19:

When you 'Register' or 'Login' to our website, look at the URL. It will change form www. to https:. Once you are onto a screen with an https: URL, you are putting your details onto a secure platform, and any information which you enter there on is 'secure'. ARC pays for this extra level of 'comfort' and security.

Ketan at ARC.

I believe this is true for Arc Euro, but https: URL does not guarantee that your details will be secure for other sites.

If you see https in the browser address bar then this suggests that the information was sent securely from the site (e.g. ArcEuro) to your browser.

However, the more important part is that your details are sent securely to the Site from your browser. The URL that controls that is usually 'hidden'. It can be checked (view page source, search for 'action=' and check that the stuff after it starts with 'https:" rather than "http:&quot but needs basic understanding.

e.g. this is the important part when submitting your username and password to Arc Euro:

<form name="aspnetForm" method="post" action="https://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/retail/registration/login.aspx?ReturnUrl=%2fretail%2fcheckout%2fdefault.aspx" onkeypress="javascript:return WebForm_FireDefaultButton(event, 'ctl00_PrimaryContentPlaceHolder_Login&#39" id="aspnetForm">

I check every now and then on new sites I buy from. I prefer paypal or googlepay. I also hope my card issuer will help if my card details are used fraudulently. So I don't mean to scaremonger… I just don't want people to think https in the url means the 'site' is safe.

I am completely happy to pay by debit card for Arc Euro purchases.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Hi Jack,

I think I generally understand what you are saying, but I don't speak html. I think what you are saying is that our site is secure, and I am happy with that.

As far as my understanding is concerned – simple language: the https: generally makes our site secure. Which is how and why we can put up the SSL Secured logo which you see on the top right hand side of our website. In our case, as far as I understand it, the 'channel/process' to log-in and registration is secure under https. If the URL was not https, then it would be classed as an open channel which can be intercepted by hackers.

Additional Security features on our website: the https also applies for all customers account details, including contact details, previous order history, and even the wish list.

The only public areas are the product pages and the shopping basket – which is to be expected on most websites, but once the Checkout button is clicked, the customers details are automatically protected under https, and all of the check-out process is secure.

When you click on 'Pay by Credit Card' button, once again, you are taken to our secure payment gateway provider 'Sage Pay', which again is a secure platform.

At the end of the day, we are always working towards improving security for both the customers and our benefit. So far, we are happy with the security we provide.

Thanks, Ketan at ARC.

Edit: because I forgot to put in the smiles…as meant to be a positive response to a positive comment

Edited By Ketan Swali on 08/08/2014 16:16:03

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

By the way, thank you all for your questions and kind comments on this thread.

Ketan at ARC.

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

Posted by blowlamp on 07/08/2014 13:57:25:

The answer to this is in Bitcoin.

Martin.

That is a very interesting thought. Too soon for the masses though. It is however, inevitable.

graham.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I must admit I'm very sceptical of Bitcoin.

If the bitcoin goes bad, do you have £85K (or whatever it is) guaranteed by the UK government?

What happens when the value of bitcoins crashes…

What about the involvement of organised crime, tax evaders etc.?

And if it all goes wrong and you do get defrauded or worse, who do you go to for redress? the Miners?

Neil

[clivelParticipant @clivel]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 08/08/2014 18:09:09:

If the bitcoin goes bad, do you have £85K (or whatever it is) guaranteed by the UK government?

When, not if, Bitcoin goes bad you lose everything.
For example in February this year, Mt Gox, which was the largest Bitcoin exchange handling around 70% of all Bitcoin transactions, suspended trading and filed for bankruptcy. Somehow they had 'mislaid' 850,000 of their customers Bitcoins worth around $450 million at the time. The reason for the disappearance of these Bitcoins has not yet been explained, possibly either fraud, theft, mismanagement or a combination of all three.

Clive

 

Edited By clivel on 08/08/2014 19:28:15

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