Anyone know where I can get hold of ‘Gauge Rods’

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

For most practical applications the internal jaws of a good digital caliper should suffice for those measurements.

Neil

[Anonymous]

Posted by JasonB on 05/09/2019 13:21:33:

I don't have gauge blocks so my suggested sizes may not be what comes in a set.

The standard sets are listed in Machinery's Handbook.

Andrew

[Anonymous]

Posted by Chris TickTock on 05/09/2019 14:04:43:

To date apart from disagreeing on him using WD40 as a cpolant for I think brass he said I have ended up always agreeing with him in the end. WD40 will gum up the lathe if your not careful is my thinking same as on clocks…

Can't imagine why you'd need to use WD40, or anything else, on brass. I always machine brass dry, with one exception. That being CNC engraving where the sole purpose of the flood coolant is to wash away the fine swarf. On something like this:

The only time I use WD40 is for manual drilling of aluminium alloy to prevent the swarf sticking to the drill.

Andrew

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Never seen a 0.001" guage block, not able to handle something that thin

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

I have a specialised set of gauge blocks – the thickness run from 0.5 to 0.9mm in 0.05 steps the 0.91 to 1.0 mm in 0.01mm steps Not sure for what purpose they were acquired by a now defunct microelectronics company – dated 1971 made by Cary Le Locle Switzerland but marked on box "Calibration uncertified"

(difficult to photo as very reflective)

They are really clean room only use – they need cleaning (iso-propyl)  but my own usage is more admiration than use as I have a more useful standard imperial set which allows checking of mics etc

Edited By Frances IoM on 05/09/2019 16:00:27

[Chris TickTockParticipant @christicktock]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 05/09/2019 14:23:37:

Posted by Chris TickTock on 05/09/2019 14:04:43:

To date apart from disagreeing on him using WD40 as a cpolant for I think brass he said I have ended up always agreeing with him in the end. WD40 will gum up the lathe if your not careful is my thinking same as on clocks…

Can't imagine why you'd need to use WD40, or anything else, on brass. I always machine brass dry, with one exception. That being CNC engraving where the sole purpose of the flood coolant is to wash away the fine swarf. On something like this:

The only time I use WD40 is for manual drilling of aluminium alloy to prevent the swarf sticking to the drill.

Andrew

Nice work Andrew, yes your'e probably right it was aluminium on reflection he suggested WD40 but on the lathe which is a no, no for me any how. I have also just measured the segment lengths using the micrometer the pivots on the balance staff I have to hand .the pivots are a .scary 0.0046 (imperial).

Chris

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 05/09/2019 14:14:37:

Posted by JasonB on 05/09/2019 13:21:33:

I don't have gauge blocks so my suggested sizes may not be what comes in a set.

The standard sets are listed in Machinery's Handbook.

Andrew

Don't have that either

[Chris TickTockParticipant @christicktock]

Hi guys in case anyone is interested just got reply from my horological expert he says as I suggested that block gauges are great for many applications but with the micro sizes involved with balance staff machining block gauges are arkward and have limited sizes.

Regards

Chris

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Chris TickTock on 05/09/2019 11:48:31:

 

OK this picture might help. For diameters I will use a micrometer. For lengths holding a pin gauge under magnification against the cut as in photo. Now back to the question can I make a collection of various diameters on my lathe that will suffice and if so EN1A leaded or Silver Steel? Remember this is micro machining.

Regards

Chris

 

I would say yes, but to be definitive consider the original post : 'What I am looking for is precision ground small round rods to use to hold against micro items being machined to assess whether it is the right length.' (A perfectly reasonable approach within limits.)

I think the keyword is assess. From the description I believe high accuracy is not needed, ie the job doesn't require an absolute measurement of a value to be made as per the formal definition of accuracy. Rather the intent is to get close to a dimension by eye and magnifying glass so that a number of tiny parts can be made close enough in size to fit together without major rework. The comparison could be relatively crude by absolute standards, say within 5%. ( ie 0.01" is acceptably anything between 0.00975" and 0.0125" )

If that interpretation is the case, pin gauges (useful to a clockmaker) would be a convenient way of assessing size as shown in Chris' picture. No need to invest in a set of costly slip-gauges, even though these would do a better job. (I don't think slip gauges are otherwise useful for clockmaking).

No reason why non-absolute pin gauges shouldn't be home-made and calibrated with a micrometer. I'd be inclined to use Silver Steel or Brass rather than mild steel because mild steel goes rusty and is a little soft. Brass is easier to turn to size than Silver Steel but not as hard wearing. However, treated with care, I'd guess Brass pins would last years.

Great things can be done by comparing magnified objects. Slip gauges and the like come into play when making many objects to specified tolerances, ie 0.015mm ±0.001mm. Mostly done so parts from different suppliers don't have to be fitted together. This is because fitters cost a fortune, take ages, and make mistakes. Working to tolerances is unlikely to be needed in most amateur workshops where our time is our own. Everything I make is fitted, not precision made.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 05/09/2019 16:32:14

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

The question in my mind is "Why assess, when you can measure and be more certain"?

I would reiterate the advice to use a Depth Micrometer, or the jaws of a digital, dial or vernier Calliper.

Using Slips is probably OTT, unless you really need to have lengths correct to within 0.0001"

Don't waste time chasing microns, needlessly. (Unless that is your hobby )

Industry will not work to microns, if 0.1 mm will suffice. The cost increases, possibly exponentially, as the tolerances decrease.

Howard

[Anonymous]

Posted by JasonB on 05/09/2019 16:11:30:

The standard sets are listed in Machinery's Handbook.

Don't have that either

Andrew

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 05/09/2019 18:32:50:

The question in my mind is "Why assess, when you can measure and be more certain"?

I would reiterate the advice to use a Depth Micrometer, or the jaws of a digital, dial or vernier Calliper.

Using Slips is probably OTT, unless you really need to have lengths correct to within 0.0001"

Don't waste time chasing microns, needlessly. (Unless that is your hobby )

Industry will not work to microns, if 0.1 mm will suffice. The cost increases, possibly exponentially, as the tolerances decrease.

Howard

.

On an earlier thread: **LINK**

https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=144147&p=3

I posted a link to this page: **LINK**

http://www.learnclockrepair.com/balance-staff-critical-dimensions-variants/

… Which describes in some detail the sort of item that Chris has expressed an interest in making

[ ref. his very first post on the forum ]

This is likely to involve a very steep learning-curve, and when supporting Chris, I think we need to bear in mind that normal industrial, or hobby-engineering, methods and tolerances may not be particularly relevant to such items.

MichaelG.

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

"This is likely to involve a very steep learning-curve"

No kidding Michael!

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

For this sort of work a loupe magnifier with scale is a good option. Peak make nice ones and can often be picked up used quite cheaply. Only problen I could see is if you can't get your head close enough with the workpiece in the lathe. A little jig to keep it squae to the work and at the same distance might be useful.

Another option woud be a USB "microscope" camera in a fixed position connected to a cheap laptop or tablet with a scale stuck on the screen calibrated against a couple of slip gauges. There is also measuring oftware available see https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=144331 for a similar application.

Robert G8RPI

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 06/09/2019 00:12:54:

Posted by Howard Lewis on 05/09/2019 18:32:50:

…

Don't waste time chasing microns, needlessly. (Unless that is your hobby )

Howard

.

On an earlier thread: **LINK**

https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=144147&p=3

I posted a link to this page: **LINK**

http://www.learnclockrepair.com/balance-staff-critical-dimensions-variants/

… Which describes in some detail the sort of item that Chris has expressed an interest in making

[ ref. his very first post on the forum ]

This is likely to involve a very steep learning-curve, and when supporting Chris, I think we need to bear in mind that normal industrial, or hobby-engineering, methods and tolerances may not be particularly relevant to such items.

MichaelG.

Fascinating stuff, I can see why people take to clockmaking! Can Michael or another expert explain a little more about the technique used to size such objects? The advice given on learnclockrepair.com talks in general terms, not dimensions or tolerances, as in 'The overall length of the staff must be such that it floats with barely perceivable endshake between the top and bottom endstones, but enough that it runs with absolute freedom.'

So how is 'barely perceivable endshake' achieved? In my rough workshop, I'd attempt this by making the balance staff slightly over-length by comparison (not measurement) and then shave the ends down until it ran 'with absolute freedom.' But is that practical when the balance staff is one of several spindles all carefully sandwiched between the side-plates of a clock movement?

Talk of practicalities reminded me of my recent go at hand-graving blue pivot steel on my WM280. Big lathes aren't well suited to micro work! First problem is a 4-way tool-post gets in the way and is best removed. Second problem is turning tiny work held in a chuck is seriously scary because knuckles and graving tool are both likely to have a close encounter with whizzing jaws. Vote collets! Third problem is getting close enough to see exactly what's going on, the headstock tends to get in the way, and stooping over a lathe on a stand is uncomfortable.

Although big lathes can do tiny work, I felt a micro-lathe on a comfy table-top would be far more practical.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 06/09/2019 09:01:36

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Dave,

First can I mention that you have revealed another useful Truth

Despite the oft-recited mantra that the best lathe is always the biggest lathe …. in truth the best lathe is the one that suits the job; and that is sometimes more about ergonomics and precision than it is about capacity and brute force.

I will append a couple of links to this brief post, if I can locate them before the 'edit' time expires

[ otherwise … see later ]

MichaelG.

.

Saunier: https://archive.org/details/watchmakershand00tripgoog/page/n4

Hall: https://archive.org/stream/atreatiseonstaff20317gut/pg20317.txt

… and, of course:

Daniels: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZWq8c0xvGxsC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 06/09/2019 10:15:29

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Posted by Chris TickTock on 05/09/2019 16:19:39:

Hi guys in case anyone is interested just got reply from my horological expert he says as I suggested that block gauges are great for many applications but with the micro sizes involved with balance staff machining block gauges are arkward and have limited sizes.

Regards

Chris

In your postings you have mentioned that you have advisors and horological experts, surely they would be able to you what the preferred, ideal, best, or correct method of making these parts to size is, rather than saying (as above) what is unsuitable.

Watch and clockmakers have been making these parts for hundreds of years and there must be well established practices documented so you should not need to reinvent the wheel. The one book I would recommend is George Daniels 'Watchmaking'.

Can we deduce that you are learning horology? you show no details in the member profile so have no idea even which country you are in.

Ian P

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

All good points Ian. It looks to me like this person is trying to gain skills by consensus questioning and shortcuts rather than watching a mentor and learning himself by practice. Clearly basic measurements are not understood. I'm not sure why so many are still trying to help this person with these oddball and unnecessary methods he brings up.

[Chris TickTockParticipant @christicktock]

Posted by Jeff Dayman on 06/09/2019 14:56:17:

All good points Ian. It looks to me like this person is trying to gain skills by consensus questioning and shortcuts rather than watching a mentor and learning himself by practice. Clearly basic measurements are not understood. I'm not sure why so many are still trying to help this person with these oddball and unnecessary methods he brings up.

Jeff it is it more the case you are joining in as the bully you evidently are. I am a member of a horological forum and have the personal guidance od a top craftsman. I come to this forum to improve my basic machining skills which I am grateful for. When such advice is above that asked for I politely move on. What do you mean Jeff basic measurements are not understood I could easily reveal my advisor who has been US craftsman of the year and is respected as top guy on the best known horological forum. Think what you like Jeff its simple I have the advice from a top dog , I listen to other opinions but not usually from the same league. The only way any one becomes really good is by scacrifice, I guess I have to put up with the likes of your rudeness to get the nice guys help…certainly no quick way.

Why not just be polite voice your opinion and except others have a right to differ. You can be better than your post

Chris

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Enough personal stuff, either just don't read, reply or use the ignor button

As is usual on the forum the question gets answered in the first reply and confirmed in the second as pin gauges are "precision ground small round rods" that the OP was looking for.

There are not that many here who do horological work so the answers are going to be from an engineering perspective rather than more specific to clock making so some of what has been suggested may seem odd to the regular members.

Thinking about the use of these rods now that we know what context they are being used for I can see and understand the logic.

-Parts too small to be able to hold a depth mic against, ditto use of the depth function on callipers

– Average line thickness on a steel rule to thick

-Working in a small space between ctrs so even if you could use the above you would have to remove tailstock to get them in each time to check size

– Probably working with a graver so no handwheel dials to use

+ Can be used while the lathe is running

+ more than likely working with magnification so able to "gauge" the difference between rod & work more accurately

As I see it you would use these much like a wood turner will hold a pair of firm leg callipers in one hand while setting diameters using a parting tool held in the other hand. So left hand holds the rod offering it up towards the rear of teh work while right hand works the graver until the shoulder is lined up with the rod. If anyone does not follow than ask and I'll mock up a photo.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Looks like a very good summary to me, Jason

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Just found this on the Tube, although he does not use rods you can see him using a master and then the various components to "gauge" the lengths and how he creeps up on the sizes. Though I think he got the for of the first wheel a bit loose no doubt due to not being able to concentrate while making a video as well

I also like that quick action rest that can be moved out the way and repositioned to a set point very quickly

Edited By JasonB on 07/09/2019 08:07:17

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by JasonB on 07/09/2019 07:17:59:

…

As I see it you would use these much like a wood turner will hold a pair of firm leg callipers in one hand while setting diameters using a parting tool held in the other hand. So left hand holds the rod offering it up towards the rear of teh work while right hand works the graver until the shoulder is lined up with the rod. If anyone does not follow than ask and I'll mock up a photo.

That's how I imagined them being used too. Thing is, what species of pin gauge does Chris need to achieve his goals?

Trouble with buying pin gauges is it takes one into the world of big money precision. For example, Cutwel offer a set of Mahr Pin Gauges covering 0.01 to 0.5mm for nearly £1500. More affordable from Cutwel are Insize gauges covering 0.02 to 0.5mm at under £200. Note that more sets have to be bought if bigger sizes are also needed. Ebay is more affordable, with sets starting at about £114 but the range of sizes available may not be suitable. None of them come with handles, so a set suitable of pin vices would be a good purchase too.

Slip gauges often come up second-hand, but I don't recall seeing pin gauges being offered. Might be because they're more easily damaged and lost!

My feeling is a small number of home-made pins turned on the end of, say, 10mm diameter rod with enough length kept to serve as a handle, and calibrated with an ordinary workshop micrometer would be fit for purpose? Easy enough to make on a Sherline leaving the money saved to be spent on more difficult tooling.

Dave

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

If making my own I'd use a couple of standard stock diameters and then you only need a couple of holders say 1/8" & 1/4", you would save money on the amount of stock used by keeping them short.

Well you know I was going to have to give it a try. Very rough setup and not the ideal tool for the job and just doing it by eye with the phone in the way, drill shank also had achamfered end that did not help. Rod measured 0.1935" (5.0mm drill shank) best I could measure the length produced 0.192" to 0.193" so could easily be improved upon if needed.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 07/09/2019 08:38:50:

.

That's how I imagined them being used too. Thing is, what species of pin gauge does Chris need to achieve his goals?

.

Short answer, Dave … He doesn't need to buy anything

There is no point trying to treat this as a metrology exercise: The old watchmakers used impromptu methods, and that's what you need to learn when making one-off replacements [or even small batches].

I do have one watchmaker's lathe that has a series of notches cut in the tool-rest, which he used an aid to positioning the graver for roughing-out balance staffs; but that's about as far as it goes.

In repair work: Parts are 'gauged' by reference to the old worn or broken item … or just made to fit.

Unless I am very much mistaken: Chris will never be in the business of mass-producing interchangeable parts … and therefore every job will be a one-off.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: Thanks, as always, to Jason, for getting out there and doing a video 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 07/09/2019 09:09:38

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