Any Idea What Lathe This Is?

[Nick OParticipant @nicko]

Hi folks, I’ve just got hold of this vintage lathe, no identifying marks on it anywhere…I’m assuming it’s a Meddings, but I’m sure someone in here can confirm that?

The plan is to refurb it, it came with two buckets full of spare parts and what not, haven’t really had a root through it all. Oh, and the hideous metallic blue paint is going!

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 25/04/2020 21:11:29

[Nick OParticipant @nicko]

[Rod ClemettParticipant @rodclemett60985]

Looks like a Myford ML1/2/3/4 to me, on the maker's stand. MYFORD ML

[Nick OParticipant @nicko]

There we go, mystery solved! Thanks Rod!

i suppose the next question is wether I’m flogging a dead horse? I reckon there’s a few weeks work to get the lathe sorted properly. Probably not much outlay other than my labour. Is it time well spent? Does anyone have one of these, and can they produce good work?

Thanks in advance!

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

It looks like a Myford ML4 to me. Do you hav the tailstock or any other bits for it?

If not excessively worn it's a capable little lathe.

Robert G8RPI.

Edited By Robert Atkinson 2 on 26/04/2020 09:41:14

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Nick Oliver on 26/04/2020 09:16:10:

…

i suppose the next question is wether I’m flogging a dead horse? I reckon there’s a few weeks work to get the lathe sorted properly. Probably not much outlay other than my labour. Is it time well spent? Does anyone have one of these, and can they produce good work?

…

Yes, they can produce good work. The main problem is the lack of guards – those exposed gears will easily crunch a couple of fingers or catch clothing and pull the operator in. Before WW2, most lathes looked like that : drive them with due diligence! After WW2 Myford launched the much improved lathes for which they are justly famous, and – although they made the earlier machines obsolete overnight, what you have still has potential.

BUT! With old lathes everything depends on condition. While some as almost 'as new', others will have been flogged. Lathes are precision machines, and their basic accuracy is far more important than cosmetic appearance. Excessive wear on the bearings, bed, and slide ways are expensive to fix. Cracked castings, damage in important places, broken and missing parts are all trouble. The electrics, motor, wiring and switches will certainly need careful looking at. The amount and state of any tooling is relevant too – that chuck might be good, bad or indifferent.

Difficult to tell condition from a photo, but yours is emitting a couple of alerts!

First, in the red circle, the handle has been over-painted in blue. This means someone has already had a go at the lathe, and – because he can't do spray painting properly – there's a good chance anything else he's touched has been botched as well. Beware buying lathes from enthusiasts who strip down and reassemble lathes without realising they're dealing with precision machines! But it's an alert rather than a show-stopper; maybe someone tarted it up for a sales photo, and hasn't been inside. If more has been done, watch out for things like gibs put back upside down, bearing wear 'corrected' by overtightening the head, missing bits, and bodges.

Second, in the red square, an inappropriate domestic switch. Needs to be replaced with something more workshop proof and an NVR switch (Emergency Stop). The wiring and motor aren't original and might be OK, but the signs of rust suggest the motor may have been stored damp. Good news, the electrics on these machines are simple to work on and not expensive.

Third, no tail-stock – possibly lost?

I think the best way to evaluate an unknown lathe is to start by checking it over for obvious problems, making sure the chuck, gearing and motor rotate by hand, and parts move as expected when the hand-wheels are turned. Then power it up and make sure it still behaves. Finally the acid test; take a rod of machinable metal (not random scrap, I like Brass or EN1A), and set a sharp HSS cutter to centre height in the tool-post. With the belts set at a middle speed take a moderate cut, say 0.2mm deep over 50mm length, and see what happens. All being well, no nasty noises, no vibration, and the newly shaven rod is parallel rather than tapered. Anything amiss, and – one problem at a time – try to identify the cause. Write a list! A long list of trivial items is OK, though keep an eye on total cost. (For example, a good looking old belt may need to be replaced because it's stiffened around the pulleys and vibrates the lathe under power.) What you're looking for are any 'oh my god' showstoppers. Most things can be repaired, but some will be too expensive.

If the idea is to make a bob or two, approach with caution. But many people enjoy refurbishing old machines and get considerable satisfaction from returning them to work; cost and time almost irrelevant.

Dave

[egaParticipant @ega]

SOD:

I don't know how you have done it but you have done a great service by rotating that photo!

PS It seems that early Myfords had no name plate or cast-in identifier?

Edited By ega on 26/04/2020 11:20:51

[David ColwillParticipant @davidcolwill19261]

Personally I would have a go at it. Try not to spend any money on it or if you do spend it on things that can be kept if you get rid. This can include chucks, toolposts and the other bits needed to use any lathe. There are many videos on youtube that would guide you in everything from adjusting and painting to completely rescraping it.

At the end you will either have a serviceable lathe or a good education.

The fact that you haven't gone out and bought gleaming example from a showroom says that either need or budget will not allow you to spend a huge amount on a lathe (nothing wrong with that). My point being that there are many lathes out there that look much nicer than yours but are just as bad and learning how to spot them is the difference between having something that is a joy to use and constantly being frustrated by it.

Good luck whatever route you go down.

Regards.

David.

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

The clue to it being a Myford is the cast-in M between the legs of the stand.

It should make a good lathe, especially if a tailstock can be found, made or adapted.

It was one similar to this that was my first lathe.

Brian

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Odd that it does not have MYFORD cast into the front of the bed in raised letters. Most did. Could it be a clone perhaps?

I wouldnt worry about the lack of guards. I've been using my similar M-type for 50 years and still have all my digits. The whirring belts and gears are at the opposite end of the machine from where I stand to use it. But it always surprises me how much some people more used to modern standards seem to worry about such things — and are then quite happy to go shoving their hands in next to belt sanders/linishers, band saws, and just about any kind of woodworking machinery where jobs are fed into whirring blades by hand, no clamps, vices or tablefeed involved.

If the bed is not worn out you should be able to make a good useable machine out of it. I have gotten good use out of the old M-Type of 1937 vintage. They will do surprisingly precision work if set up carefully, and will still take a 100 thou deep cut under power feed too.

That stand is a beauty too. It has the old cutouts under the headstock area that originally allowed a belt to run downwards to the treadle flywheel in pre-electric motor days.

Edited By Hopper on 26/04/2020 12:22:00

Edited By Hopper on 26/04/2020 12:31:59

[Barnabas TaylorParticipant @barnabastaylor89961]

Can't say much more than SOD, suck it and see is the best route. I would always advocate resorting it, I love old lathes because they look so much nicer than the modern stuff! I would try not to spend money on it until you have to though, put in some time first, we all seem to have lots of that at the moment… If it seems ok, then you can put some cash towards the bits and bobs that make it a pleasure to use.

[Maurice TaylorParticipant @mauricetaylor82093]

I would get it going as it is ,to make sure expensive bits are ok.Then I would clean ,paint and rebuild.No need to worry about electrics till it’s rebuilt.

 

 

Edited By Maurice Taylor on 26/04/2020 15:57:40

Edited By Maurice Taylor on 26/04/2020 16:00:19

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Can't see clearly enough for my old eyes, but it does look like a Myford ML

Yes, it needs a Tailstock.

It can be quite a useable little machine.

If it needs to be said, Do NOT engage back gear to remove the chuck. This is likely to result in broken teeth on the gears.

Not all machines had Tumbler Reverse; that was an optional extra for a new machine.

When back gear is engaged, the grubscrew in the bottom of the vee in the Headstock cone pulley needs to be slackened off. (Preferably removed, and put in a safe place, so that it cannot fly out and get lost when the lathe is running ).

There is a lot of information on the Lathes UK website (which is where a lot of what follows comes from )

If you need telling, the threads will be BSF and BSW, possibly BA for the gibs.

If it is a long bed (24" centres or so, it will be a ML2 or ML4. ML1 and ML 3 were 15" centres )

You will already have found that the Saddle Handwheel moves in the opposite way to what you may expect; i.e. clockwise rotation moves the Saddle away from the Headstock.

The ML1 and ML2 had a centre height of 3.125". The ML3 and 4 were 3.5" centre height

Very early MLs had the Headstock cast into the bed. On later ones the headstock was secured to the bed with 1/4 BSF studs and nuts. production started in about 1937, and ended in the 1940s. These machines were superceded by the ML7 which was introduced in 1947.

The early Mandrels had a standard 3/4 BSW 9 tpi thread, this was superceded by a 3/4 x 12 tpi thread, and i think that the very latest had the 1.125 x 12 tpi thread used on the Series 7 machines.

For my friend, I made up a 3/4 BSW to 1.125 x 12 tpi adaptor, so that the later Myford standard backplates and chucks could be fitted.

There should be a cover over the changewheels. A few machines had a cover with a vertical hinge, but most, I believe, hinged about a horizontal shaft (carried in a cast bracket ) secured behind the Headstock, with 5/16 setscrews..

Having the bracket, but not the cover, I made one from some sheet Aluminium, pop rivets, some simple collars, and some 5/32 Whitworth setscrews. One setscrew was modified to fit the slot in the bracket, which limits the travel of the cover.

Change wheels should run from 20T to 65T in increments of 5T. There should be two 20T, but only one 60T. in the complete set.

The gears are driven and compounded, by 3/32" pins connecting the gears to each other or the driving collars, (on Mandrel and Leadscrew ).

If you are short of Changewheels, 7 Series wheels will fit, but will need to be drilled part way through to take the 3/32" driving pin. Drill the hole away from the keyway! The gears are 20 DP, 14.5 pressure angle.

The leadscrew is 8 tpi.

If you can collect three x 20T gears, two x 60T gears and a 65T you can set up a 20 : 60/20 : 65/20 : 60 train which will provide a fine feed of 0.00427" / rev.. You may need to fettle the inside of the ends of the banjo to fit in all three studs to set up the geartrain.

The Cross Slide and Top Slide Leadscrews are 12 tpi, and the dials have 80 divisions, so each division is not 0.001", but, 0.00104".

With a full set of changewheels, you would be able to cut a range of Imperial screw threads

Headstock and Tailstock are both 1 MT.

If you lack centres (ideally you need at least two, preferably three ), they can be made by cutting the flutes off (preferably scrap ) 1 MT drills, and offsetting the Top Slide by 30 degrees to produce the 60 degree centre.

It will be worth spending time making a Centre Height Gauge. It will make setting tools, so much easier!

Hope that this is helpful, but not insulting to your intelligence.

Howard

[Nick OParticipant @nicko]

Thanks for all the advice chaps!
There are two builders buckets full of parts, I haven’t delved too deeply, but there are chucks, face plate, tail stock and a pile of gears, as well as loads of drills, tools and such like. Now that I’ve cleared the bench in the garage I’ll tip it all out and see what’s what! Watch this space!
So, full strip and rebuild, probably junk the motor and replace with a 700 watt modern one from an old pillar drill, agree completely about a safety stop! I have a hideous guard for the gears, that’s going in the bin and I’ll knock up something nicer.

It came from a friends Grandfathers house, they were clearing after he passed away and it was heading for the tip. I felt obliged to save it, gave them a handful of cash for goodwill, and I feel good about the deal. Looking forward to bringing it back to life, there’s too much old stuff chucked out. It’s not about the money, and I could have just bought a new lathe, but that’s no fun! There was a bonus in the deal though, and I only realised when I got home but amongst the rusty pile was….an Adept Hand Shaper! Result!

Now….about those photos…..Honestly, I took them the right way round, but somehow in the upload to album on here they all turned round……what’s the secret? I couldn’t find a rotate button!

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Sounds as if you have a lot of the bits to get it up and running.

As you begin tom use it, wear/ maladjustments will come to light. Once it is clean enough to be used, use it, and use that to diagnose problems. You will become familiar with the machine and its quirks, compared yto a modern machine. But that does not render it useless. rather, it enlarges you range of skills.

Only fix it when it's broke!

Howard

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

BRAIN FADE!

The Mandrel thread is 7/8 not 3/4 as I posted earlier!

Apologies if i misled anyone

Howard

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Nick,

Looks good, keep us udated on progress, I love in seeing old, apparent junk come back to life again with some tlc,

Regards

TerryD

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Nick Oliver on 26/04/2020 17:08:57:

…

Now….about those photos…..Honestly, I took them the right way round, but somehow in the upload to album on here they all turned round……what’s the secret? I couldn’t find a rotate button!

You have to ensure photos are the right way up before uploading. Almost any image editor will do, Photoshop, gimp, and other full-blown photo editors if you're into photography, but MS-Paint, or any other simple graphics editor that supports rotation and jpeg will do the job. Simply open the image, rotate it as necessary, and save it back. Then upload it on to the website.

The problem occurs because, unlike people, digital images have no natural frame of reference. Instead cameras and software use a number of different indicators to decide which way is 'up', and they don't always agree. The image and its orientation indicators are just numbers, and cameras aren't very brainy! Using an editor lets a human force all the image's orientation metadata in the same direction, typically what people expect 'up' to be.

Dave

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