An expesive day

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

Depending where the sump drain plug is relative to the oil pump, it might be possible to use a flexible bore scope after an oil change.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Using "5W20 fully synthetic" oil is not good enough. Ford specify that the oil used must be approved (not just "meet&quot Ford specification WSS-M2C945-A. Unless you can prove that the car was professionally serviced with approved oil and parts you have little chance of getting anything from Ford.

I'm not saying that their approved oil makes any difference, but it might, or that a wet belt is a good idea. However IF the car had been fully serviced by a Ford dealer I think you would have a case for some compensation from Ford. I do wonder if they have actually paid for some repairs but with a non disclosure condition.

Robert.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

There is a guy in the USA called i do cars. All he does is strip wrecked motors down to see why they failed. I have just watched him tear down a 1.0 ecoboost like ours.

Not good. Terrible idea to do what Ford did. If you have 30 mins of your life to spare have a look at this.

Steve.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Thanks for the link, Steve

My mind is now truly boggled:

How on earth could someone design that in the name of progress !?

MichaelG.

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

In the video posted by Steve, did the guy give an indicaton of mileage. I skimmed through the video so may have missed that. I would suggest that was a neglected engine, judged by the amount of c**p in the sump.

I have had three Fords with that engine. All have been reliable (so far!) but have not really lived up to the "eco" bit of the name, that is to say not as economical as I would have liked, especially the one with the auto gearbox.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by John MC on 14/06/2023 08:05:07:

In the video posted by Steve, did the guy give an indicaton of mileage. I skimmed through the video so may have missed that. I would suggest that was a neglected engine, judged by the amount of c**p in the sump.

I have had three Fords with that engine. All have been reliable (so far!) but have not really lived up to the "eco" bit of the name, that is to say not as economical as I would have liked, especially the one with the auto gearbox.

Maybe change your footwear, John? ‘Eco’ may be more related to the economy of materials in manufacture? Or related to the economy compared to the non-boosted engine? Almost certainly marketing hype, whatever it means.

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

If you've had three of them, presumably you've not kept them long enough for the scheduled belt change? The 9 hour job that sucks up any savings(which are mostly the road tax) made in the preceding 10 years in one unforgettable payment? The one that requires a big stack of parts from Ford that aren't necessarily available at the same time?

as for the video engine being neglected, that crap in the sump is from the belts and not the usual rubbish from a lack of oil changes. It's also typical of the Citroen/etc engine that uses a similar wet belt. Anyone who does this job without removing the sump and cleaning as much as they can is setting themselves up for an expensive customer complaint…

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

Posted by not done it yet on 14/06/2023 08:13:54:

Posted by John MC on 14/06/2023 08:05:07:

In the video posted by Steve, did the guy give an indicaton of mileage. I skimmed through the video so may have missed that. I would suggest that was a neglected engine, judged by the amount of c**p in the sump.

I have had three Fords with that engine. All have been reliable (so far!) but have not really lived up to the "eco" bit of the name, that is to say not as economical as I would have liked, especially the one with the auto gearbox.

Maybe change your footwear, John? ‘Eco’ may be more related to the economy of materials in manufacture? Or related to the economy compared to the non-boosted engine? Almost certainly marketing hype, whatever it means.

Change my footwear? Don't follow. The Eco referred to the cars economy of ownership, according to some sales lit I have when I first bought one, needs some translation from "sales speak" to english but I think I am right.

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

Posted by Nick Wheeler on 14/06/2023 08:46:27:

If you've had three of them, presumably you've not kept them long enough for the scheduled belt change? The 9 hour job that sucks up any savings(which are mostly the road tax) made in the preceding 10 years in one unforgettable payment? The one that requires a big stack of parts from Ford that aren't necessarily available at the same time?

as for the video engine being neglected, that crap in the sump is from the belts and not the usual rubbish from a lack of oil changes. It's also typical of the Citroen/etc engine that uses a similar wet belt. Anyone who does this job without removing the sump and cleaning as much as they can is setting themselves up for an expensive customer complaint…

No I haven't kept them long enough for a belt change, guess why?

Not convinced that the belt debris is responsible for the wear elsewhere in the engine. That sludge will sit in the sump, if any gets picked up by the pump won't the filter hold on to it?

Reminds me of when the Japanese introduced motorcycle engines that the engine, gearbox and clutch shared the same oil. Dire warnings from the less knowledgeable about clutch lining material destroying the engine……

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

I only know what has been written in this thread, but I understood that the 'wet' belt frays and the fibres from that gradually block the oil sump pick-up, (which has a coarse gauze in it), and that blocks the oil flow before it can reach the filter?

So a standard service for these engines needs to include dropping the oil sump to check and clean the oil pick-up gauze. Perhaps that what the official Ford garages do?

[GaunlessParticipant @gaunless]

I own a Ford Focus 1.0 Ecoboost. 2017 reg.

Excellent engine for a 1.0l 3 cylinder engine. Very quiet for a 3 cylinder, ultra smooth, powerful for it's size with that amazing little turbo, and economical for an engine of that class in a family car. (regular 50mpg).

70,000 miles with not a whisper of trouble. It's a little masterpiece. An amazing bit of design.

If you can't afford the belt change, don't buy the car. Or sell it before it's due.

Think of how many of those engines are out there. You only hear of the ones with problems. Like any engine. In any car.

Far too many crap drivers out there. Drive it properly, service it regularly with the proper parts and oil. In other words, RTFM.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Why use rubber belts when chains would work without issue?

Martin.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by blowlamp on 14/06/2023 11:34:33:

Why use rubber belts when chains would work without issue?

Martin.

Partly because chains don't work without issue! They break, have to be lubricated, are noisy and have other disadvantages.

Engineering is all about meeting requirements at minimum cost. I've no problem with belts provided they meet the specification, which Steve's didn't. It doesn't mean that all belts are bad. Within specification, belts are lighter, quieter, cheaper, and smoother than chains, plus they don't need a tensioner and are low-maintenance.

Whilst chains are highly efficient, I don't know how belts compare. They're lighter, which would save energy, but I guess friction is higher. There's probably a trade-off related to distance and the amount of power transferred.

Dave

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by blowlamp on 14/06/2023 11:34:33:

Why use rubber belts when chains would work without issue?

There are several recent engines with poorly designed timing chains. Google for images of VAG's vee engines, or BMW's four cylinder diesels. The I Do Cars Youtube channel mentioned here has tear-downs of many of these which highlight just how bad they can be.

[Michael HornerParticipant @michaelhorner54327]

"Why use rubber belts when chains would work without issue?"

 

Timing chain

If you were to read through your Discovery 4 manual, you’ll see that Land Rover’s official recommendation is to replace your car’s oil every 15,000 miles.

Most owners have found this to be insufficient, however, as leaving an oil change this long is known to cause other issues including damage and stretch to the timing chain.

Hi Martin, it would appear that is not correct.

Cheers Michael.

Edited By Michael Horner on 14/06/2023 12:06:23

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 14/06/2023 11:57:47:

Posted by blowlamp on 14/06/2023 11:34:33:

Why use rubber belts when chains would work without issue?

Martin.

Within specification, belts are lighter, quieter, cheaper, and smoother than chains, plus they don't need a tensioner and are low-maintenance.

Dave

Really??? + 60,000 mile service on most normal cam belts.

Chevy tried nylon teeth on a metal disc on their steel toothed belts 50 years ago – they fell off!

It's possible that if Steve or a previous owner, or even a Ford dealer didn't use Ford oil of the right grade that caused the belt to degrade.

Unfortunately I can confirm that even at tickover a cam chain pick can up enough oil to not be reconisable as a chain, but a large black rope of oil. So the belt will spend it's working life completely covered in the hot stuff.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by John MC on 14/06/2023 10:42:26:

Posted by not done it yet on 14/06/2023 08:13:54:

Posted by John MC on 14/06/2023 08:05:07:

I have had three Fords with that engine. All have been reliable (so far!) but have not really lived up to the "eco" bit of the name, that is to say not as economical as I would have liked, especially the one with the auto gearbox.

Maybe change your footwear, John? ‘Eco’ may be more related to the economy of materials in manufacture? Or related to the economy compared to the non-boosted engine? Almost certainly marketing hype, whatever it means.

Change my footwear? Don't follow. The Eco referred to the cars economy of ownership, according to some sales lit I have when I first bought one, needs some translation from "sales speak" to english but I think I am right.

Perhaps change from hob-nailed boots to, say, plimsols? Potentially less pressure exerted on the ‘loud pedal’ accelerator?🙂🙂

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

Posted by not done it yet on 14/06/2023 12:48:26:

Posted by John MC on 14/06/2023 10:42:26:

Posted by not done it yet on 14/06/2023 08:13:54:

Posted by John MC on 14/06/2023 08:05:07:

I have had three Fords with that engine. All have been reliable (so far!) but have not really lived up to the "eco" bit of the name, that is to say not as economical as I would have liked, especially the one with the auto gearbox.

Maybe change your footwear, John? ‘Eco’ may be more related to the economy of materials in manufacture? Or related to the economy compared to the non-boosted engine? Almost certainly marketing hype, whatever it means.

Change my footwear? Don't follow. The Eco referred to the cars economy of ownership, according to some sales lit I have when I first bought one, needs some translation from "sales speak" to english but I think I am right.

Perhaps change from hob-nailed boots to, say, plimsols? Potentially less pressure exerted on the ‘loud pedal’ accelerator?🙂🙂

Lead boots? Me? Not in the family car, the wife would have something to say about that!

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

I don't understand some of the responses to my comment. Are some of you saying that if this engine were made with a reasonably spec'd timing chain setup, then we could still expect it to fail in a similar way?

Martin.

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by blowlamp on 14/06/2023 13:08:30:

I don't understand some of the responses to my comment. Are some of you saying that if this engine were made with a reasonably spec'd timing chain setup, then we could still expect it to fail in a similar way?

I'm suggesting that the same engineers who came up with the wet timing belt can't be trusted to not complicate timing chains into similarly unreliable designs.

Dave: timing belts do have tensioners, and they're often the failure point especially when combined with other parts like the water pump. But, the whole assembly is on the outside of the engine, and doesn't use a hydraulic tensioner fed with oil that's often contaminated by a lack of changes of weirdly specified oil, stuck piston rings, direct fuel injection and all the other problems that are common on modern engines. All that makes them much easier to service, within a more predictable service life and fit for purpose.

[Maurice TaylorParticipant @mauricetaylor82093]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 14/06/2023 11:57:47:

Posted by blowlamp on 14/06/2023 11:34:33:

Why use rubber belts when chains would work without issue?

Martin.

Partly because chains don't work without issue! They break, have to be lubricated, are noisy and have other disadvantages.

Engineering is all about meeting requirements at minimum cost. I've no problem with belts provided they meet the specification, which Steve's didn't. It doesn't mean that all belts are bad. Within specification, belts are lighter, quieter, cheaper, and smoother than chains, plus they don't need a tensioner and are low-maintenance.

Whilst chains are highly efficient, I don't know how belts compare. They're lighter, which would save energy, but I guess friction is higher. There's probably a trade-off related to distance and the amount of power transferred.

Dave

Hi ,Dave

,which engines do not have tensioners on the timing belt ,have you changed any that haven’t.How is a belt with no tensioner tensioned.
As for maintenance ,some need changing every 70000 miles ,chains don’t .

Maurice

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

Engineering is all about meeting requirements at minimum cost. I've no problem with belts provided they meet the specification, which Steve's didn't. It doesn't mean that all belts are bad. Within specification, belts are lighter, quieter, cheaper, and smoother than chains, plus they don't need a tensioner and are low-maintenance.

This is something of a misconception. Belts will be noisier and less smooth than a well designed chain set up. Consider this, each chain link comprises of a roller on its pin (axle) that will be lubricated with a film of oil that will cushion the "blow" on impact with the sprocket. When the rollers come into contact with the sprocket the same will happen. (Same might be said for a wet belt setup?). That is to say a chain has some resilience in tension compared to a belt that can make a smoother running setup.

As for tensioners, I've yet to see a cam drive setup without a tensioner, belt or chain. Sometimes auto, sometimes manual. I think auto best because it stops gorillas over tensioning and the overly cautious under tensioning.

Cost is, I think, the main reason for using belts in this application. A belt running dry requires a lot less engineering than a wet chain they replaced. Think of it from the production angle rather the than the maintenance angle. Cars are designed for low cost production, maintenance doesn't seem to be given much priority.

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by Maurice Taylor on 14/06/2023 13:43:23:

As for maintenance ,some need changing every 70000 miles ,chains don’t .

Maurice

I seem to remember that for some models Ford said the Cam Belt doesn’t need changing and should last the life of the engine. The quoted life in one instance being 88,000 miles I believe.

When I worked as a Ford mechanic many years ago I carried out a service on a Ford Cortina MK5 with just over 100,000 miles on the clock. It was only a year old! And no, I didn’t change the cam belt.

A quick Google says chains don’t last any longer?

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Google and idotz.com??? I'd not trust that. Chains do normally last longer than belts and all I've seen were "on condition" so changed when they start to rattle etc.
Engine toothed timing belts without tensioners do exist. Ford and Volvo at least use stretch belts on some engines. SWMBO's 2l automatic Focus has one. Needs a special tool to put it on. The toothed "timing" drive belts used in a lot of industrial equipment are often used without any tensioner other than inital adjustment of a pulley position. But they don't tend to have the same loads and speed range as engine timing belts.

Robert.

Edited By Robert Atkinson 2 on 14/06/2023 18:29:34

[Chris Pearson 1Participant @chrispearson1]

Posted by blowlamp on 14/06/2023 11:34:33:

Why use rubber belts when chains would work without issue?

Please don't upset my nerves.

I had to sell my last car to We Buy Any Car Dot Com not because the chain had gone, but because a pulley had worn. That meant that the timing of the two cams was slightly awry, which leads to a warning light, which is an MOT fail.

The car was not economically repairable. Well, not unless I did it myself, which would have taken at least 24 hours.

[Author]

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