Amateurs

[Donald WittmannParticipant @donaldwittmann92536]

Being a time served turner I really wonder about the competence of some of the so called machinists on this forum. Cowboys, being one word that springs to mind. The amount of time that somebody asks a question on here [many times there is only 1 way do do the job] and he/she is bombarded with all manner of quite frankly “stupid” so called methods I thought Heath Robinson was dead many years ago but I’m sad to say he is alive and well Another foible that I have noticed about the amateur is the way they go on about tight tolerances and promptly buy cheap Chinese tools and then moan about not being able to hold said tolerances. when I would blame a combination of crap tools/tooling and them being able to speak a good job but being unable to do the job.

So the bottom line is amateurs are not in a position to give any advice on machining and should stick to making plastic kits.

I will now have a look through some more postings [I could do with a laugh]

Donald Wittman.

[Donald WittmannParticipant @donaldwittmann92536]

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I think you will find that one of the reasons more than one method is suggested is that a lot of “amateurs” don’t have the facilities of a fully equiped toolroom so often they have to make do with smaller machines and limited tooling.

 

I think after a while on any one forum you soon get to know who is an armchair engineer and who knows what they are on about.

 

As for buying cheap tooling, many people who do this as a hobby cannot afford any better and have to work with what they can.

 

I’ll look forward to seeing your advice on some future threads

 

Jason

Edited By JasonB on 23/03/2011 18:37:55

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Donald,

 

Are you really saying that because I am not a time served turner, I should not be attempting to turn? Because if you are, then to me that either displays an arrogance of the highest order or that you are a fully paid up member of the union demarcation bully boys, something I thought we had managed to get rid of.

 

Peter G. Shaw

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Donald, you have probally found one way of not being very popular anyway. Like Jason says, the home workshop rarely has the budget of a commercial outfit.

 

I’ve worked in industry for over 40 years and have learned that there is always more than one way of doing almost any job, wether it is machining, welding, fabricating, fitting ect. and even in industry budgets won’t allow you to do things the ideal way always.

 

Regards Nick.

[WearyParticipant @weary]

I suggest that we resist the temptation to feed the troll!

 

Phil.

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Frankly, with only 1 post, I shall add you to my Ignore member list (and you will be the only one)

Edited By KWIL on 23/03/2011 19:05:59

[Bill DawesParticipant @billdawes]

I think Donald is being a bit hard on the ‘amateurs’. Amateur is not neccessarily another word for incompetent anymore than professional is for competent, Remember this is, for most people, a hobby not a profession. Be a bit less pedantic please Donald.

Bill D.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Donald Wittman on 23/03/2011 18:16:13:

 

 

I could do with a laugh]

 

 

 

Donald Wittman.

 

 

 

Thanks, I’ve just had one

 

John S.

Edited By John Stevenson on 23/03/2011 19:06:45

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Welcome aboard, Donald!

 

Martin.

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Hi Donald,

Had a bad day?

 

Frequently there are a myriad of ways to do the same thing, depending on equipment and experience.

Just because someone is time served does not mean that they know it all. I know one such, now retired, who had never ever turned copper based alloys (something amateurs use regularly) in his entire working life, so who’s the expert? . If you whinge about amateurs on an amateur forum you are not going to get much sympathy. Don’t just complain, if you are as good as you say you are, it is your duty to show the amateurs how to do it.

Looking forward to some constructive advice from your lofty pillar of knowledge.

chriStephens

[Donald WittmannParticipant @donaldwittmann92536]

Donald, No I am not a paid up union bully boy. It is just the laughable so called advice that appears on these type of forums. 1 example over on another forum there is instructions on how to build a tram indicator using 2 clocks! no miller that i know of would ever tram their head that way. that,s what I mean about bad advice, the proper and most accurate way is 1 clock and rotate 360degrees. places even sell such things, why have someone pay for a tool that is no use, again bad advice.

Nicholas It bothers me not If I am unpopular. Another of my pet hates is the amateurs complaining about the cost of proper tooling/machines then they go out and buy the latest chinese crap and then start complaining about their purchase. If they can’t afford decent tooling/machines then they should take up basket weaving or some other such hobby.

I have a lot of time for people wanting to learn In fact I would go out of my way to help any body who want’s to learn but I have no time at all for the “I’ll use this Chink tool and then complain brigade” or the Heath Robinson mob.

Donald.

 

[GoCreateParticipant @gocreate]

Posted by Donald Wittman on 23/03/2011 18:16:13:

I thought Heath Robinson was dead many years ago

Donald Wittman.

 

Heath Robinson will never die, thank goodness. I wonder how many times Heath Robinson has saved the day were limited resourcesare available, Apollo 13 springs to mind.

Long live Heath Robinson.

[Dinosaur EngineerParticipant @dinosaurengineer]

I’ve always thought that the mark of a good engineer is that he/she can improvise when the need arises when the correct machine or equipment is not available. Most machinists can turn out good class work with access to all the right equipment but it takes an engineer to develop new ways of doing things when the normal equipment is not available. Theses adaptable “Heath Robinson” engineers can be worth their weight in gold in times of emergencies.

Edited By Dinosaur Engineer on 23/03/2011 20:16:53

[StovepipeParticipant @stovepipe]

How does Donald define an “amateur” ? It appears to be a pejorative term in his vocabulary.

 

Dennis

[William RobertsParticipant @williamroberts98085]

THank you my friends, I took up this hobby when I retired and if I live to 100 will always class myself as an amateur at the side of most of you. I thought a hobby was all about enjoyment , thank goodness Donald duc ooops sorry Wittman cant take the enjoyment away even if some of us are not perfect like him.

Bill ( Heath Robinsons relation)

[The Merry MillerParticipant @themerrymiller]

Well said Dino.

[brickyParticipant @bricky]

Donald

Have you visited a model engineering exhibition.If you have I am surprised by your remarks,as the majority of the entrants are self taught and there workmanship is remarkable.Please enter your advice for those of us who benefit by the knowledge of a skilled man .

Bricky 

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Donald, in my experience precision engineering is all about attitude. I have worked with time served men who were cr*p because they didn’t have pride and interest in their work, converseley 2 of the best Toolroom grinders I ever knew were not time served but ex dental technicians who had the right attitude and could be relied upon to produce excellent work.

I have bought £1000’s of tooling over the years both decent brands and also from the shall we say ‘budget’ end of the market and have mostly been pleased with my purchases.You get a lot of metal for your money from our Eastern cousins and certainly wouldn’t denigrate an amateur engineer buying from these sources.

I could rant on all night but let me also say that I look forward to your positive contributions on this forum, I might even learn something from you.

Tony

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi There

I believe Cherry worked for the family business which was agricultural engineering.

Could be wrong but whatever she is trained in, she is still an amateur as she does not make models to sell.

A professional would earn a living using his skills.

regards David

 

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi Tony

I worked for a large aerospace company.

The boss looked at a top end machine that would last about five years.

He also looked at a lower end machine at about 1/5 of the price that would also last about 5 years.

 

He bought five of the cheaper versions which ran 24 hours a day 7 days a week.

 

Money was not a problem. I was spending £15,000 to £20,000 a month on cutting tools.

 

We also ran two experimental prototype milling machines made in the UK.

The ceramic bearings would not stand up to the loads and were replaced every few months at £30,000 a go.

 

regards David

 

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi There

I will probably get some flak but when I was in a production environment, it was understood that toolmakers took five times as long as a production man for the same job.

regards David

 

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

When I was in a Toolroom environment it was a fact that the production workers didn’t even understand what, why or how we were making things, but were always saying ” why is it taking so long, I could do that 5 times quicker”. The first part is oh so true,the last part I added for David’s benefit.

Tony

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

At the risk of upsetting some of our friends in industry – I was on the other side of the fence in Defence QA.

 

For my money about the only people who can be relied on to turn out a decent job to drawing were in racing cars or the aircraft industry. They certainly weren’t making tanks or vehicles or engines or gearboxes – even in some companies with famous names. One only had to look at the endless list of concessions on any armoured vehicle, and compare the lack of them on say a Tornados birth certificate.

 

Half the time they could make the steel properly, and having made it, (under concession) couldn’t weld it, and then couldn’t machine it flat enough to mount bearing races that were unbumpy enought to be within limits for the fire control system.

 

So I for one am a touch underwhelmed by the 40 years in the trade bit. Possibly I was looking at the wrong end of it?

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

MGJ, have you seen the price of an F1 car or aircraft , if you can throw enough money at a component you will get it right eventually with no concessions. I am frankly amazed that we can’t make steel, weld it then machine it flat, have we really got that bad?

Tony

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