Does brass distort when heated up to silver solder?

Advert

Does brass distort when heated up to silver solder?

Home Forums Beginners questions Does brass distort when heated up to silver solder?

Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 28 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #271104
    Greg H
    Participant
      @gregh

      Hi,

      I'm making a hand pump for my locomotive and have run into a problem.

      I have fabricated the body from brass. The cylinder is 3/4" OD with 1/2" bore. I reamed the bore.I silver soldered the the parts together which included the cylinder to the rest of the pump. After soldering I went to put the piston in and it did not fit. I measured the ID and it was 0.3mm out of round.

      i tried to squash it back into shape and I could for the 15mm or so but I could n't true up the bit furthest in.

      I'm going to replace the cylinder and have made a new one. I didn't want to end up with the same problem after I've soldered it.

      So I was wondering if brass normally distorts like this?

      If so is there something I should have done in the set up to stop it distorting e.g. put a piece of 1/2" bar in the cylinder when soldering?

      Regards,

      Greg

      Advert
      #8429
      Greg H
      Participant
        @gregh
        #271105
        John Haine
        Participant
          @johnhaine32865

          Why don't you solder first then ream?

          #271106
          Martin Connelly
          Participant
            @martinconnelly55370

            Any joining process that involves molten metal cooling to room temperature will cause residual stress in the area of the joint. This is because the metal solidifies at a high temperature then shrinks as it cools down to room temperature. This shrinkage is similar to the effects seen with bi-metalic strips and the forces can cause distortion in the assembly. If you machine something with large stresses after it has cooled the stresses can equalise out in a new distorted position, stainless steel has a large coefficient of expansion so suffers from this if too much heat is used when welding. Stress relieving can help in some cases. All you can do with your assembly is leave material to be removed after the joint is made and do the final work when it is cold. You may find some movement occurs in the material as some is removed. For instance if you were turning a diameter you may find that the amount removed does not result in the expected diameter.

            Martin

            #271107
            Greg H
            Participant
              @gregh

              Hi John,

              Good idea but it's a blind hole and I only have a hand ream which is tapered at the end and so the part furthest in would under size.

              Hi Martin, that makes sense. The amount of distortion surprised me.

              Here's what the pump looks like. I'm not sure how I could finish the machining off after soldering. What do others do when fabricating such a thing?

              Apologies for the upside down photo. It's from photobucket for some reason it flips it when posted in here.

              Greg

               

              Edited By Greg H on 11/12/2016 09:14:41

              #271111
              Hopper
              Participant
                @hopper

                Half inch machine reamers are cheap cheap these days. You can also buy a good British brand name used reamer on eBay even cheaper and usually they are still plenty good enough for home use. Will ream pretty much right up to the end of a blind hole.

                Silver solder first, ream later is the only way I can think you will get the job done.

                #271113
                John Haine
                Participant
                  @johnhaine32865

                  Or make yourself a D bit from silver steel.

                  #271115
                  Alan Waddington 2
                  Participant
                    @alanwaddington2

                    I've never made anything so small, but when I worked in engineering pretty much any fabrications that required accuracy would be welded first, heat treated then machined. On large pressure vessels the amount of movement post heat treatment, was sometimes staggering.

                    Could you not have soldered first and then bored out on the lathe or mill ? I realise it would be a bit awkward to hold the part, but that flat base should give a good start.

                    i guess you might be able to clean up the existing bore by boring out slightly larger and making a new piston, or sacrificing your existing reamer and chopping the tapered portion off.

                    #271120
                    JasonB
                    Moderator
                      @jasonb

                      Did you have the parts clamped together when you soldered them?

                      The metal will be a lot softer at read head and the pressure from a clamp will be enough to distort the part.

                      #271122
                      Greg H
                      Participant
                        @gregh

                        Hi Jason, no I just had it sitting in place.

                        If I buy a machine reamer how will I know how far from the end it will be 1/2" diameter?

                         

                        Edited By Greg H on 11/12/2016 10:12:17

                        #271127
                        Emgee
                        Participant
                          @emgee

                          Greg

                          Total flute length will be at marked diameter except for the small bevel at the end to provide the lead in required.

                          Emgee

                          #271129
                          John Haine
                          Participant
                            @johnhaine32865

                            Or a D bit – will cut right to the end. A fiver from Tracy Tools.

                            #271130
                            John Haine
                            Participant
                              @johnhaine32865

                              Or make you own….

                              #271131
                              Greg H
                              Participant
                                @gregh

                                That sounds ok.

                                Ok then sounds like they only way is to assemble and then ream after. So I'll have to buy myself a new reamer.

                                Thanks all for your advice,

                                Greg

                                #271138
                                Brian Oldford
                                Participant
                                  @brianoldford70365

                                  A bit of a side issue but, I notice there isn't any link arrangement to prevent the piston twisting in the bore as the pump is operated. Isn't the piston more often a longer parallel ram connected to the lever by a link?

                                  #271142
                                  Greg H
                                  Participant
                                    @gregh

                                    I went with a different design to how most are done. This design allows the cut out in the loco tank to be made smaller. It is similar to a car engine with gudgeon pins.

                                    Got a reamer on ebay. $9.20 AUD with delivery included. So about a fiver smiley Can't work out how they make it and also post it for that.

                                    **LINK**

                                    Unfortunately delivery is estimated at between 3 Jan and 23 Jan

                                    Edited By Greg H on 11/12/2016 11:13:01

                                    Edited By Greg H on 11/12/2016 11:13:38

                                    Edited By Greg H on 11/12/2016 11:14:12

                                    #271145
                                    julian atkins
                                    Participant
                                      @julianatkins58923

                                      Hi Greg,

                                      An interesting design of handpump.

                                      I think you just had bad luck with the pump cylinder.

                                      The cylinder is a bit on the thin side which probably hasnt helped.

                                      Note that after silver soldering, brass will be annealed, and not the best material to use.

                                      A gunmetal casting is available. If you dont want a double acting pump you can use the casting provided for your County Carlow loco.

                                      Cheers,

                                      Julian

                                      #271156
                                      Greg H
                                      Participant
                                        @gregh

                                        Hi Julian,

                                        I thought a smaller hole in the tank would be nice, but there's a bit more in the design and I do feel it may be a bit more fragile than a standard pump.

                                        I knew brass was not a great choice but didn't have anything else at the time and had my doubts as to how successful the pump would be and so was keen to try it out.. I might use a bit of gunmetal for the new cylinder.

                                        I also perused all the hand pumps castings on reeves looking for something suitable, but thought by the time it got here I could have made one, and I did, it just wasn't that successful.

                                        Hopefully mark II is more successful.

                                        Edited By Greg H on 11/12/2016 11:41:12

                                        #271235
                                        Peter Tucker
                                        Participant
                                          @petertucker86088

                                          Hi Greg,

                                          I would take a skim off the inside of your fabricated body with a boring bar, then lap the bore and make a slightly bigger piston.

                                          Peter.

                                          #271270
                                          nigel jones 5
                                          Participant
                                            @nigeljones5

                                            Hi Greg

                                            This is a problem I too have encountered. Here is how I solved it. First plan for a thick wall, 1/8 minimum after reaming. Lay barrel flat and put in place the joining web (hold it any which way you can), apply heat evenly and solder in place. Be sure not to use higher temp silver solder or the whole thing might just melt! Now put in 3 jaw and drill/bore to the desired undersize for reaming. Next solder the base plate in place – the previously added web will help stop things distorting – apply heat to the outside of the base but dont clamp anything as if you do it will surely distort. You can then add the end section and hand ream as described by others. When I make mine I tap the end and screw on the ball valve section to do away with the risk of any distortion after fitting the base. If you go down this route you can solder it all together and then bore and ream in the lathe. I also always add several O rings and find that they are 100% reliable. Hope this helps.

                                            #271286
                                            MW
                                            Participant
                                              @mw27036

                                              Slightly unrelated but on the opposite scale of problems with brass, I happened to be reading an excerpt from my home machine shop book I bought from the states which talks about ball pein hammers being used to physically harden brass and copper by beating it with the domed side. Hence why you have to keep reannealing shaped material out of brass and copper.

                                              Michael W

                                              #271323
                                              Ian S C
                                              Participant
                                                @iansc

                                                You can't do this with a blind bore, but with a through bore you can regain some hardness in the brass by forcing a hardened steel ball through the bore, it also makes the bore round and parallel.

                                                Ian S C

                                                #271328
                                                Nigel Bennett
                                                Participant
                                                  @nigelbennett69913

                                                  When brass is at high (silver-soldering) temperatures, it is very soft indeed. If you pick up your nice hot fabrication to dunk it in the pickle, then the pliers you use to hold it with will very easily distort the brass.

                                                  Don't ask me how I know this…

                                                  #271331
                                                  Brian Oldford
                                                  Participant
                                                    @brianoldford70365
                                                    Posted by Nigel Bennett on 12/12/2016 10:18:46:

                                                    When brass is at high (silver-soldering) temperatures, it is very soft indeed. If you pick up your nice hot fabrication to dunk it in the pickle, then the pliers you use to hold it with will very easily distort the brass.

                                                    Don't ask me how I know this…

                                                    And you can also get a knurled effect where the jaws of the pliers gripped the job too.

                                                    Don't ask me how I know this…

                                                    #271348
                                                    Martin Kyte
                                                    Participant
                                                      @martinkyte99762

                                                      Repeatedly plunging a red hot cube of steel into water will over time change it's shape to spherical by differential contraction and stress relief. Similar things will occur with brass so maybe hot plunges into the pickle are not such a good idea after all.

                                                      regards Martin

                                                    Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 28 total)
                                                    • Please log in to reply to this topic. Registering is free and easy using the links on the menu at the top of this page.

                                                    Advert

                                                    Latest Replies

                                                    Home Forums Beginners questions Topics

                                                    Viewing 25 topics - 1 through 25 (of 25 total)
                                                    Viewing 25 topics - 1 through 25 (of 25 total)

                                                    View full reply list.

                                                    Advert

                                                    Newsletter Sign-up