Thrust washer

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Thrust washer

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  • #8364
    Wolfie
    Participant
      @wolfie
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      #264903
      Wolfie
      Participant
        @wolfie

        OK can anyone explain to me in words of one syllable what a thrust washer is?

        If you talk about 'axial forces' you will have already lost me lol crook

        #264907
        Howard Lewis
        Participant
          @howardlewis46836

          A Thrust Washer takes the force along a shaft (The axial force).

          In the case of a lathe, it takes the load trying to push the Mandrel out of the back of the Headstock when you are taking a cut along the bed towards the Headstock. If the lathe has Taper Roller Bearings in the Headstock, these not only locate the mandrel radially, but also take the thrust.

          Could take the form of a washer, (Bronze, Phosphor Bronze, Brass, Nylon, etc) or a bearing with needle rollers disposed radially, sandwiched between two hardened steel washers. These, in turn bear against a face of the housing.

          Your car engine will have thrust washers between faces on the crankshaft and the crankcase, to take the thrust when you depress the clutch pedal.

          In a ship, the thrust of the propellor against the hull used to be taken by thrust blocks made of wood, (Lignum Vitae)

          Howard

          #264916
          Tim Stevens
          Participant
            @timstevens64731

            Axial means in line with the axle, and radial means in line with a radius. So, as Howard says, a thrust bearing copes with axial loads or forces or pushes or pulls along the axle, spindle, shaft, etc.

            It does seem an odd term when you think that ALL bearings* are intended to resist thrust, why pick on axial ones to pin the name to? But I suppose its the same as electric motor 'brushes' which are solid lumps, and 'analogue' clocks that go round in identical jerks and have hands …

            * PS not compass bearings, though!

            Regards, Tim

            Edited By Tim Stevens on 05/11/2016 15:52:37

            #264924
            not done it yet
            Participant
              @notdoneityet

              Words with more than one syll-ab-ul folks. Try it like this.

               

              It is the thing used at the place where the force of the cut (for a lathe), or the load on the end, is thwart in the line of the axis of a round bar while it is spun (or it could be still and pushed, I dare say).

               

              The force on a shaft while it turns by a belt drive would be like a spoked line of force which bears on the side of the thing in which it runs (on which the shaft slides). This force must be pushed back by a force of the same size, too.

               

              All force must be the same in all lines or the shaft would move. These two are at right bend to each and each can be more boss at any one time.

               

               

               

               

              Edited By not done it yet on 05/11/2016 16:17:28

              #264927
              Bob Brown 1
              Participant
                @bobbrown1
                Posted by Howard Lewis on 05/11/2016 15:11:20:

                In a ship, the thrust of the propellor against the hull used to be taken by thrust blocks made of wood, (Lignum Vitae)

                Howard

                I've never seen a ships propeller thrust block in wood but have seen propeller shafts in wood bearings. Normally the loads are carried in thrust block that has a series of pads that have a pivot on them to allow an oil film between them and disc on the shaft.

                #264931
                Wolfie
                Participant
                  @wolfie

                  OK so how does simply putting a washer on a shaft create this counter force? Wont it just slide on the shaft?

                  #264933
                  Bob Rodgerson
                  Participant
                    @bobrodgerson97362

                    It would be made to bear against shoulder on the shaft.

                    #264936
                    Tim Stevens
                    Participant
                      @timstevens64731

                      The washer will not create anything – sorry. This is a difficult question to answer, Woolfie, not because the science is hard but because I do not know where you are starting from. If I make assumptions (such as that you know about Newton's Laws of force and motion) then you might struggle if you are not up to speed on the science, but if I really do start from square one, you are likely to consider me a patronising old fart.

                      Basically, look at a boat propeller, and this turns, providing a force trying to push the boat forwards. This force happens because the propeller is pushing the water backwards. What stops the force back from the water from pushing the propeller shaft into the boat? Well it has to have something to push against. And to stop this thing (whatever it is) from wearing out as the prop shaft pushes against it, we add a device designed to resist the force without wearing out. This 'thing' is called a thrust bearing. It holds the prop shaft in place (up and down and side to side) so the water does not get into the boat, but its main job is to resist the push of the prop shaft.

                      In practice, a shoulder on the shaft might push against a washer fitted to the boat – this is a very basic thrust bearing. But the turning combined with the continuous force will wear it out, so we try oil and grease – which are an improvement. But the turning action squeezes out the lubricant, and the continuous force does not allow any slack to allow more lube in. So, special self-lubricating material (such as wood or plastic or metal impregnated with oil or graphite, etc) is used, and there still needs to be a smooth flat surface to push against, so this is what the washer provides. Clever thrust bearings can include steel balls or rollers to avoid the sliding, or the use of swivelling plates which tilt under load to allow lubricant in (as mentioned by Bob Brown above).

                      I hope this helps, but do ask again if there are gaps in the explanation for you.

                      Regards, Tim

                      PS: I am reminded of a student who was puzzled by an explanation of how a car engine works. After several frowns, he said 'Does petrol burn, then?'

                      #264951
                      Michael Gilligan
                      Participant
                        @michaelgilligan61133

                        Can't do it with words of one syllable, but how's this for simple ?

                        Think of a door 'meeting' a door-stop …

                        Now imagine the whole thing spinning

                        That's a thrust washer In action.

                        MichaelG.

                        #264954
                        Michael Horner
                        Participant
                          @michaelhorner54327

                          Hi Wolfie

                          Have a look at this! **LINK**

                          else try Wikipedia.

                          Cheers Michael

                          #264968
                          stevetee
                          Participant
                            @stevetee

                            M

                            Edited By stevetee on 05/11/2016 19:54:20

                            #264977
                            Michael Gilligan
                            Participant
                              @michaelgilligan61133

                              ^^^ Concise, but perhaps a little too cryptic, Steve.

                              MichaelG.

                              #264996
                              HOWARDT
                              Participant
                                @howardt

                                A washer, a circular object with a hole in the centre and usually thin in relation to its diameter. A washer becomes a thrust washer when the thrust or load is placed on its face.

                                #265063
                                Martin Connelly
                                Participant
                                  @martinconnelly55370

                                  There is a video by EricTheCarGuy on YouTube called thrust bearings and what they do. A thrust washer is a basic type of thrust bearing so this video is relevant to the question. **LINK**

                                  Martin

                                  #265105
                                  Wolfie
                                  Participant
                                    @wolfie
                                    Posted by Tim Stevens on 05/11/2016 17:31:31:

                                    The washer will not create anything – sorry. This is a difficult question to answer, Woolfie, not because the science is hard but because I do not know where you are starting from. If I make assumptions (such as that you know about Newton's Laws of force and motion) then you might struggle if you are not up to speed on the science, but if I really do start from square one, you are likely to consider me a patronising old fart.

                                    Basically, look at a boat propeller, and this turns, providing a force trying to push the boat forwards. This force happens because the propeller is pushing the water backwards. What stops the force back from the water from pushing the propeller shaft into the boat? Well it has to have something to push against. And to stop this thing (whatever it is) from wearing out as the prop shaft pushes against it, we add a device designed to resist the force without wearing out. This 'thing' is called a thrust bearing. It holds the prop shaft in place (up and down and side to side) so the water does not get into the boat, but its main job is to resist the push of the prop shaft.

                                    In practice, a shoulder on the shaft might push against a washer fitted to the boat – this is a very basic thrust bearing. But the turning combined with the continuous force will wear it out, so we try oil and grease – which are an improvement. But the turning action squeezes out the lubricant, and the continuous force does not allow any slack to allow more lube in. So, special self-lubricating material (such as wood or plastic or metal impregnated with oil or graphite, etc) is used, and there still needs to be a smooth flat surface to push against, so this is what the washer provides. Clever thrust bearings can include steel balls or rollers to avoid the sliding, or the use of swivelling plates which tilt under load to allow lubricant in (as mentioned by Bob Brown above).

                                    I hope this helps, but do ask again if there are gaps in the explanation for you.

                                    Regards, Tim

                                    PS: I am reminded of a student who was puzzled by an explanation of how a car engine works. After several frowns, he said 'Does petrol burn, then?'

                                     

                                     

                                    Thankyou this makes it quite clear. It was the requirement for it to be self lubricating which was the sticking point, I couldn't quite work out what made them any different from any other washer but now I know why!

                                    Edited By Wolfie on 06/11/2016 12:48:21

                                    #265106
                                    Wolfie
                                    Participant
                                      @wolfie

                                      So in effect, its a sorta flat bearing?

                                      #265114
                                      Mark Simpson 1
                                      Participant
                                        @marksimpson1

                                        like this…IKO Nippon Thompson Roller Bearing Thrust NTB1730AS

                                        or this…51101 SKF Thrust Bearing 12x26x9

                                        or this (much more expensive…)

                                        Always sandwiched between two shoulder/faces/somethings…

                                        #265115
                                        Muzzer
                                        Participant
                                          @muzzer

                                          Wow. A moderator on a model engineering forum with 500 posts to his name lacks both the basic knowledge of what a thrust washer is – and the ability to Google it. I thought I had a good armchair!

                                          #265116
                                          MW
                                          Participant
                                            @mw27036
                                            Posted by Muzzer on 06/11/2016 13:43:25:

                                            Wow. A moderator on a model engineering forum with 500 posts to his name lacks both the basic knowledge of what a thrust washer is – and the ability to Google it. I thought I had a good armchair!

                                            I don't see how that applies to his circumstances. Being a good M.E isn't about belittling those who know less than you might.

                                            Michael W

                                            #265201
                                            Hopper
                                            Participant
                                              @hopper
                                              Posted by Wolfie on 06/11/2016 12:47:57:

                                              Thankyou this makes it quite clear. It was the requirement for it to be self lubricating which was the sticking point, I couldn't quite work out what made them any different from any other washer but now I know why!

                                              Edited By Wolfie on 06/11/2016 12:48:21

                                              It sure would help if you let slip a few details about what exact application you are looking to use a thrust washer for.

                                              They don't necessarily need to be lubricated, or even self-lubricated at all. A thrust washer can be used in a totally dry application, for example taking up end float in a shaft where the washer is placed between a shoulder on the shaft and the inner race of a sealed ball bearing.

                                              #265203
                                              Hopper
                                              Participant
                                                @hopper

                                                Or, to put it in the requested words of one syllable: A round thing with a hole in it.

                                                #265223
                                                MW
                                                Participant
                                                  @mw27036
                                                  Posted by Hopper on 07/11/2016 06:21:02:

                                                  Or, to put it in the requested words of one syllable: A round thing with a hole in it.

                                                  Yep, it doesn't even need ball races or rollers or anything of the sort, it could be just a bronze washer.(though they commonly are the former.) So long as it's taking up some of the force that might have a resulting effect on whatever it's sitting on or next to. When it comes to locking handle it can also be used in a different scenario to "bearing forces" to enhance the locking action and make it easier to undo.

                                                  Michael W

                                                  Edited By Michael Walters on 07/11/2016 09:38:39

                                                  #265252
                                                  Lambton
                                                  Participant
                                                    @lambton

                                                    Wolfie asked a simple question because he wanted to know the answer – rather than just guessing or making an assumption. This is what we should all be prepared to do as no one knows all the answers even to seemingly simple questions.

                                                    My late Father, an expert tool maker, told me to always ask about things or instructions that I did not properly understand. I told him that I feared appearing foolish by asking such questions. He replied that no one worth listening to would think me foolish but I would look really foolish if I guessed the answer and made something wrong wasting valuable materials and time in doing so.

                                                    Ask away Wolfie and anyone else who has a seemingly simple question.

                                                    #265257
                                                    Wolfie
                                                    Participant
                                                      @wolfie

                                                      Ok I’m doing my first motorcycle restoration, it’s basically a practice run and learning curve. I keep running across references to thrust washers and they look like normal ’round thing with a hole in’ washers. I was trying to find out why they had this special name, what differentiated them from normal washers which in a lot of cases appear to do the same job.

                                                      For instance if I come across a missing one, can I simply replace it with a steel washer??

                                                      Edited By Wolfie on 07/11/2016 13:49:57

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