Single cam working both inlet and exhaust

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Single cam working both inlet and exhaust

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  • #630785
    Dougie Swan
    Participant
      @dougieswan43463

      Hi

      I have been trying to find information on the cam setup where 1cam operates both valves vi a cam follower

      I have seen it on old blackburne and jap engines but can't find any info on this

      Can anyone tell me what this system is called so I can try to model it

      Thanks

      Dougie

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      #29011
      Dougie Swan
      Participant
        @dougieswan43463
        #630786
        Kiwi Bloke
        Participant
          @kiwibloke62605

          Don't know whether it had a particular name. IIRC, the 16 valve Triumph Dolomite used this arrangement. I remember them going like stink, and very noisily, at Silverstone – in the 70s? Might be able to find info about them…

          #630790
          bernard towers
          Participant
            @bernardtowers37738

            I believe therenarena couple of model ic engines use this idea where one valve is operated above the cam and the other valve below the cam with a pivoted bellcrank

            #630791
            Dave Daniels
            Participant
              @davedaniels93256

              Ariel motorcycle single cylinder 350 & 500 ohv engines had 1 cam with 2 followers

              NH & VH iirc.

               

              D.

              Edited By Dave Daniels on 24/01/2023 09:18:29

              #630793
              Mike Poole
              Participant
                @mikepoole82104

                That must be done for economy of manufacture I would think as performance must be compromised to make this work. Not quite sure how the Dolomite Sprint engine achieved its performance if limited by this arrangement.

                Mike

                #630797
                MichaelR
                Participant
                  @michaelr

                  Dougie, Re the Dolomite Sprint valve gear Here I think the term is Uni cam.

                  MichaelR

                  #630799
                  Hopper
                  Participant
                    @hopper
                    Posted by Dave Daniels on 24/01/2023 09:17:14:

                    Ariel motorcycle single cylinder 350 & 500 ohv engines had 1 cam with 2 followers

                    NH & VH iirc.

                     

                    D.

                    Edited By Dave Daniels on 24/01/2023 09:18:29

                    With strange bell crank cam followers that pivoted above the camshaft, one running on each side of the cam lobe. Some (earlier) models had two lobes, others (later I think) had just one lobe. Famously Sammy Miller's trials bike GOV had the single lobe cam.

                    Edited By Hopper on 24/01/2023 09:52:00

                    Edited By Hopper on 24/01/2023 09:52:15

                    Edited By Hopper on 24/01/2023 09:53:46

                    #630813
                    JasonB
                    Moderator
                      @jasonb

                      As Bernard mentions Find Hansen has a nice model vertical engine where a single cam drives the two pushrods by a simple bell crank arrangement

                      #630814
                      Nick Wheeler
                      Participant
                        @nickwheeler
                        Posted by Mike Poole on 24/01/2023 09:30:32:

                        That must be done for economy of manufacture I would think as performance must be compromised to make this work. Not quite sure how the Dolomite Sprint engine achieved its performance if limited by this arrangement.

                        The Sprint engine is limited by this arrangement and by other questionable design decisions. While it is poor compared to its theoretical potential, it does make more power than 8valve versions of the same engine. Merlin V12s use a similar design, which is probably where they borrowed it from.

                        #630815
                        Hopper
                        Participant
                          @hopper

                          Beautiful model engine there. And shows perfectly how the single lobe cam works. Looks like by having the cam followers contacting the cam below the centre line you get less than 180 degrees of cam rotation between when the inlet valve is fully open and when the exhaust valve is fully open. So you could vary the cam timing by raising or lowering the pivot points of the bell crank cam followers. The same effect as varying the lobe separation angle on a normal multi-lobe cam.

                          Edited By Hopper on 24/01/2023 11:17:08

                          #630818
                          Ex contributor
                          Participant
                            @mgnbuk

                            That must be done for economy of manufacture I would think as performance must be compromised to make this work.

                            Doesn't appear to affect performance too much, as this is a method used by Honda on current bikes – taken from a description of the latest Hornet 750 :

                            It’s instantly apparent that the new Hornet’s engine takes a leaf from the Africa Twin’s book, sharing a similar Unicam setup – where a single overhead camshaft acts directly on the four intake valves and opens the four exhaust valves via a set of rockers – to give similar performance to a DOHC design but with fewer components and a more compact layout. Honda’s CRF450R motocross bikes have long adopted a similar setup.

                            Doubtless having to make fewer parts will reduce costs as well.

                            Nigel B.

                            #630820
                            Graham Meek
                            Participant
                              @grahammeek88282

                              Chuck the Muddle Engineer described a Glow Plug horizontal engine in ME some time back. This used a single cam, but other than a scale drawing no build description was give,

                              Regards

                              Gray,

                              #630821
                              Hopper
                              Participant
                                @hopper

                                But don't the Hondas have separate intake and exhaust lobes, on one camshaft?

                                #630823
                                Ian Parkin
                                Participant
                                  @ianparkin39383

                                  Some pictures here of a ner a car engine ( blackburne) showing the arrangement

                                  img_2818 (medium).jpg

                                  img_2819 (medium).jpg

                                  img_2821 (medium).jpg

                                  #630834
                                  Dougie Swan
                                  Participant
                                    @dougieswan43463

                                    Thanks for all the replies

                                    Some interesting reading there

                                    The motorcycle style shown in the post is what I was thinking of

                                    I'm thinking of building a jap or blackburne v twin and I'm just trying to understand the single cam setup

                                    Any ideas on how to work out the angles

                                    Dougie

                                    #630838
                                    JasonB
                                    Moderator
                                      @jasonb

                                      CAD

                                      #630845
                                      Dougie Swan
                                      Participant
                                        @dougieswan43463

                                        What do you mean Jason

                                        Dougie

                                        #630846
                                        Tim Stevens
                                        Participant
                                          @timstevens64731

                                          The two valves need to open at a given rotation, one after the other, x degrees apart. Once your timing is selected, mark out on the cam gear the two opening positions, and arrange the two bell-cranks so that the followers start to rise on the cam, one for the first angle, and then x degrees later the other follower starts.

                                          If I was designing from scratch I would make a cardboard (etc) disc to represent the half-speed gear, centred on a drawing pin, and mark on it the required opening and closing positions. Then I would play with various options (eg one pivot or two, etc) until I arrived at a pair of followers which give the desired timing. It would help, as you are starting from scratch, to make the gear with a keyway, and a spindle with a matchning longer keyway to fit, and then the two cams to the same profile to fit the spindle, but no keyway yet. Then you can position each cam where you think it should go, and turn the engine slowly to check where the valves lift and close. You can do each cam separately to avoid confusion, but be sure to mark each cam so that you always get them in the desired position and the desired way round. When you are sure you have it right, mark each keyway position and cut the slots.

                                          As regards the 'best' timing for your engine, it depends a lot on what you want to use it for. Look at the timing details for a range of full-size engines, and you will find a big difference between lawn mowers, designed to slog all day, and racing machines, designed to go flat out for short periods. And the further back in time you go, the slower and steadier the engines are, with smaller angles of 'overlap'.

                                          Hope this gets you going

                                          Cheers, Tim

                                          #630848
                                          JasonB
                                          Moderator
                                            @jasonb

                                            Dougie, I would no doubt use my CAD drawing package to work it out on the computer. But you can also use Tim's suggestion of old school Cardboard And Drawingpins

                                            As well as positioning the two followers the required angle apart you may well need to make allowances for the fact the bellcranks move in an arc rather than pushing directly on a pushrod. The lengths of the bellcrank arms could also be tweaked if you wanted more "lift" on one valve than the other simply by having different lengths to each arm to reduce or increase the amount of movement. Diameter of roller followers may also allow some difference in duration for the same cam profile

                                            #630851
                                            Ady1
                                            Participant
                                              @ady1

                                              I always wanted a Dolomite… but they were British Leyland…

                                              valve pic here

                                              https://www.documentosdelmotor.com/noticia/26-triumph-dolomite-sprint

                                              They only one I ever went to see had a swimming pool in the footwell so you'd have to wear wellies to drive it

                                              So we bailed out the integrated foot bath and I had a look, I even got it started for him and he was really chuffed with me

                                              I didn't take it home

                                              #630853
                                              Tim Stevens
                                              Participant
                                                @timstevens64731

                                                Sorry, got distracted, and wrote about two cams (which is actually easier to design) – but the same principle applies if one cam is used, and the different timings are achieved by varying the shapes of the followers. Remember, too, that if you use one pivot for both followers, one follower will be backwards in appearance. In other words, one will lead the cam, and the other will trail – like the shoes in an old-fashioned drum brake.

                                                One problem you might find with the 'one pivot' design is that if you wish to change the timing, you will be limited to changing the dwell (open period) for both valves by the same amount. And you won't be able to change the valve overlap usefully without a lot of compliaction, because both followers use the same pivot.

                                                Books have been written on valve timing, so a paragraph or two can only hint at the complications – sorry.

                                                Cheers, Tim

                                                #630856
                                                Dougie Swan
                                                Participant
                                                  @dougieswan43463

                                                  Thanks guys

                                                  Tim, you have explained it so that it makes sense, the cardboard and drawing pin idea is great

                                                  I don't have the luxury or the knowledge how to work a cad package Jason but I liked your cardboard and drawing pin take on it

                                                  I will just have to sit at my drawing board and pull out what little hair I have left

                                                  Dougie

                                                  #630857
                                                  JasonB
                                                  Moderator
                                                    @jasonb

                                                    Dougie, the drawing of a JAP engine on this page should give you an idea of what sort of shape to cut your cardboard.wink

                                                    Quite a simple pair of staggered levers with the followers on pivoted from opposite sides of the cam, not sure if you are making a single or V twin but same would apply to either and the straight arms remove the complications of bellcranks changing the direction of movement.

                                                    #630875
                                                    Richard Millington
                                                    Participant
                                                      @richardmillington63972

                                                      BSA A7/A10, A50/A65 also used a single cam with stellite tipped followers.

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