Why reverse a lathes direction?

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Why reverse a lathes direction?

Home Forums General Questions Why reverse a lathes direction?

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  • #201556
    Rainbows
    Participant
      @rainbows

      Considering the electricals of my Ml1 lathe and I was wondering why some lathes have a motor that can run in both directions. Myfords have a Dewhurst switch and I was wondering whether I should get a drumswitch for my motor too.

      Thinking about why to do it though the only thing I could think of is if you ever want to mount your tools upside down.

      So my question is why do some lathes have reversable motors?

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      #24057
      Rainbows
      Participant
        @rainbows
        #201561
        Mike Poole
        Participant
          @mikepoole82104

          If you are cutting metric threads on an imperial lathe you will not want to disengage the clasp nut, so you will need to reverse the lathe to get back to the start point and take the next cut. On a lathe with screw on type chucks cutting in reverse could unscrew the chuck.

          Mike

          #201562
          JasonB
          Moderator
            @jasonb

            Screwcutting away from a shoulder with the tool behind the work, facing the bottom of a recess from the ctr outwards, taper turning to keep the topslide set the same for the male & female part, left hand threadcutting, putting metal back on when you have cut too much off.

             

            J

             

            Edited By JasonB on 23/08/2015 14:14:06

            #201563
            Muzzer
            Participant
              @muzzer

              External turning with a boring bar at the rear of the work. Allows you to use the same top slide angle for internal and external chamfers without having to change anything.

              No, I don't do that rear / upside down parting off hocus pocus.

              #201567
              Rainbows
              Participant
                @rainbows
                Posted by Michael Poole on 23/08/2015 14:03:07:

                If you are cutting metric threads on an imperial lathe you will not want to disengage the clasp nut, so you will need to reverse the lathe to get back to the start point and take the next cut. On a lathe with screw on type chucks cutting in reverse could unscrew the chuck.

                Mike

                Well thats something I certainly need. The unscrewing chuck is a worry though. Is there a way to avoid that?

                Also can any motor be reversed? I got a single phase Brooks motor

                #201573
                David Cambridge
                Participant
                  @davidcambridge45658

                  Couple with an inverted parting tool, it makes things a lot easier.

                  #201574
                  Nigel McBurney 1
                  Participant
                    @nigelmcburney1

                    reversing useful for tapping,and threading with sliding die holder.preferable with a lathe that has methods of securing the chuck other than a threaded mandrel. Single phase motors should not be continually switched to forward or reverse,they can overheat and burnt out,most single phase motors have a rating stating the maximum starts per minute,not stamped on the motor plate but with the manufacturers spec.

                    #201576
                    KWIL
                    Participant
                      @kwil

                      You can carefully run a screw mounted lathe chuck in reverse if it is at low speed and inverter driven (ie it does not snatch start).

                      Alternatively I have a system to lock the chuck from unscrewing which relies on a internal morse taper lock to prevent unscrewing.

                      #201585
                      Nicholas Farr
                      Participant
                        @nicholasfarr14254
                        Posted by JasonB on 23/08/2015 14:12:35:

                        …………………………………… putting metal back on when you have cut too much off.

                        J

                        Edited By JasonB on 23/08/2015 14:14:06

                        Hi, neat idea

                        Regards Nick.

                        #201602
                        Ajohnw
                        Participant
                          @ajohnw51620
                          Posted by Rainbows on 23/08/2015 14:37:32:

                          Posted by Michael Poole on 23/08/2015 14:03:07:

                          If you are cutting metric threads on an imperial lathe you will not want to disengage the clasp nut, so you will need to reverse the lathe to get back to the start point and take the next cut. On a lathe with screw on type chucks cutting in reverse could unscrew the chuck.

                          Mike

                          Well thats something I certainly need. The unscrewing chuck is a worry though. Is there a way to avoid that?

                          Also can any motor be reversed? I got a single phase Brooks motor

                          Usually if you have done some heavier turning the normal way they don't unscrew. People sometimes mention inverters as they can be made to ramp up the speed rather than start the lathe turning near instantaneously. In my view cuts are the main problem providing the chuck is tightened on, normal turning will usually do that, not start up speed. I don't oil the spindle nose so have no idea if that could make the chuck unscrew more easily but it might.

                          I've had it happen once on a very small lathe. The chuck was a fairly loose fit which I suspect was the main reason.

                          John

                          #201604
                          John Stevenson 1
                          Participant
                            @johnstevenson1

                            Years ago I used a ML7 in a near production capacity. In all the years I owned this lathe I had the chuck come loose twice.

                            Note loose not unscrew and fall off. I feel that this problem is vastly over rated and just churned out ad hock every time this subject comes up.

                            In many case the operations being carried out on a small lathe require the revolting steady being used for support on a component that possibly wouldn't need it on a far larger and more rigid lathe. However it is this use of the steady that makes it impossible for the unscrewing action to start.

                            Both time my chuck came loose was because I was pushing the limit or doing something I shouldn't to get out of a mess.

                            #201605
                            Mike Poole
                            Participant
                              @mikepoole82104

                              A single phase motor with a centrifugal switch will not reverse until it has slowed enough for the switch to reconnect so switching straight into reverse will not result in the chuck unscrewing, with many people using inverters to run their lathe it is possible to slow the motor much more quickly than letting it coast to a stop, if the slow down ramp is very short a chuck that has not been nipped on or taken a reasonable cut could come loose. Someone will quote the story of switching straight into reverse and seeing the chuck unscrew and slamming back into forward with the chuck locking on to the nose and the backplate having to be machined off the nose. I often do a bit of light turning in reverse and have not yet had the chuck unscrew but it is always in the back of my mind when doing it. I programmed a conservative slowdown on my lathe inverter but if you go too far it is annoying waiting for it to stop. Just running in reverse to reposition the carriage is most unlikely to ever be a problem.

                              Mike

                              #201607
                              Rainbows
                              Participant
                                @rainbows
                                Posted by John Stevenson on 23/08/2015 19:34:57:

                                Years ago I used a ML7 in a near production capacity. In all the years I owned this lathe I had the chuck come loose twice.

                                Was it with a soft start motor or anything?

                                #201609
                                Eugene
                                Participant
                                  @eugene

                                  I have a Myford M type which has a screw type spindle and is fitted with both a reversing switch for the motor, and a tumble reverse.

                                  As a mere novice I've taken it that the presence of the tumbler renders the reversing switch redundant. Am I right? Are there circumstances when the direction of rotation on a screw type spindle needs to be reversed? I didn't understand the external boring thing ….. above my pay grade. 

                                  Eug

                                  Edited By Eugene Molloy on 23/08/2015 20:56:27

                                  #201611
                                  John Stevenson 1
                                  Participant
                                    @johnstevenson1
                                    Posted by Rainbows on 23/08/2015 20:30:35:

                                    Posted by John Stevenson on 23/08/2015 19:34:57:

                                    Years ago I used a ML7 in a near production capacity. In all the years I owned this lathe I had the chuck come loose twice.

                                     

                                    Was it with a soft start motor or anything?

                                    .

                                     

                                    No bog standard single phase motor initially and then later a two speed three phase motor, no inverter, this was pre affordable VFD's

                                     

                                    Inverters, in my book bring an extra action to the equation in that because these things have start up and stop ramps and most can be fitted with dynamic braking then the operator tunes these to the limits.

                                     

                                    Why I have no idea. In a commercial environment it could save 0.2 seconds and over a working day this can add up but we are talking hobby / shed environment here and it's not needed.

                                     

                                    All it does is stress parts not designed to be stopped on a 1/12th scale model of a sixpence.

                                     

                                    Another problem is that the back EMF from stopping a motor fast more than not errors the drive out, that's why dynamic braking was implemented.

                                    Stop a big motor in less than 1.5 seconds and most VFD's will error out on a low volts warning meaning you have to reset the VFD.

                                    Keep it around two seconds and it removes all the strain of having a spanner thrown in the works and you actually work faster as you don't have to keep setting the VFD.

                                     

                                    So if you do have to run in reverse the answer is to check the chuck before hand and take things steady. Use the tailstock centre if you can and be aware it can happen.

                                     

                                    Good thing is it never happens in a split second, unless you are running at 33,000 revs you get a warning.

                                    You see the wobble or results of it in the work and the note changes.

                                    Anyone who is both blind and deaf will be well advised to rest their white stick on the chuck and they will feel the vibrations.

                                     

                                    Edited By John Stevenson on 23/08/2015 21:08:02

                                    #201612
                                    Ajohnw
                                    Participant
                                      @ajohnw51620
                                      Posted by Eugene Molloy on 23/08/2015 20:51:45:

                                      I have a Myford M type which has a screw type spindle and is fitted with both a reversing switch for the motor, and a tumble reverse.

                                      As a mere novice I've taken it that the presence of the tumbler renders the reversing switch redundant. Am I right? Are there circumstances when the direction of rotation on a screw type spindle needs to be reversed? I didn't understand the external boring thing ….. above my pay grade.

                                      Eug

                                      Edited By Eugene Molloy on 23/08/2015 20:56:27

                                      Yes there are – any time when a screw cutting indicator can't be used to cut a particular pitch of thread so the screw cutting nut has to remain engaged. There is a technique that allows a brief disengagement if the lathe has a screw cutting indicator but the lathe still has to be run back to the start of the thread by reversing the lathe.

                                      Michael made a good point – if an inverter is set to brake the motor rapidly running in reverse the chuck could well unscrew.

                                      When I had it happen it was pretty painless really – oh dear and did something about it before the chuck fell off.

                                      John

                                      #201618
                                      duncan webster 1
                                      Participant
                                        @duncanwebster1

                                        Michael, if the motor is single phase with a centrifugal switch on the start winding, switching direct from forward to reverse without waiting for it to slow down for the centrifugal switch to re set will surely result in the motor carrying on going forward.

                                        This is because reversing a single phase motor alters the connection of the start winding, but if the start winding is disconnected by the centrifugal switch, it won't know.

                                        #201624
                                        Rainbows
                                        Participant
                                          @rainbows

                                          Well I got a tutorial on wiring drum switches off the internet and the knoledge that the chuck won't immediately fly off into my face so I think thats a wrap.

                                          Thanks all

                                          #201638
                                          Eugene
                                          Participant
                                            @eugene

                                            John,

                                            Thanks for the reply, but I still don't understand fully.

                                            Say I'm screwcutting a metric thread and want to leave the drive nut permanently engaged, but rewind the carriage, all I need do is operate the tumble reverse. The drive to the shaft is reversed and so the carriage moves t'other way. I can retract the tool or not as preference indicates. Yes?

                                            You may gather from the degree of incomprehension that I have yet to cut a metric thread.

                                            Eug

                                            #201639
                                            Jon Gibbs
                                            Participant
                                              @jongibbs59756

                                              Hi Eug,

                                              You raise the obvious point but sadly it's not that straight forward.

                                              This is precisely one reason why you'd want to reverse the motor because changing the tumbler reverse would be a bad idea when metric threading with an imperial leadscrew or vice versa. It'd be almost impossible to resynchronize the spindle and the leadscrew if the tumbler reverse is altered.

                                              Another option though is to use a spindle driving handle to rewind the leadscrew rather than doing it under power.

                                              Jon

                                              #201654
                                              Mike Poole
                                              Participant
                                                @mikepoole82104

                                                Duncan, I think you have said what I meant to say, I should read my scribbling with more care.

                                                Mike

                                                #201665
                                                Ian S C
                                                Participant
                                                  @iansc

                                                  There is a method of clamping screw on chucks on the spindle, it consists of a double ring, one half clamps on the spigot on the back of the chuck, the other half clamps on the spindle nose, you may need one for each chuck, face plate etc unless they all have the same size spigot. The quickest was of getting a chuck to unscrew is by braking, either mechanical, or electronic, unless you can rig up a brake that works on the chuck (but don't use that one when running reverse).

                                                  Ian S C

                                                  #201666
                                                  Anonymous

                                                    Good grief, makes me glad to have a proper 3-phase supply! I not sure that using braking resistors is any different to swapping two phases in order to reverse a motor. On my repetition lathe it is quite normal to reverse the motor by simply flicking a switch in the headstock. This is an electrical switch and it simply swaps two phases; there is no stopping and re-starting in between. There is a second switch on the headstock which selects one of two speeds, by changing the number of poles the motor is using. I regularly flick both switches when tapping. So, for instance, tap at 500rpm forwards, and as soon at the dog clutch on the tapping head trips flick both switches and back the tap out at 1000rpm in reverse. This also puts the spindle in the correct state for any subsequent turning, as the turning tools are behind the spindle. So 'normal' operation is with the spindle running in reverse compared to most lathes.

                                                    Andrew

                                                    #201667
                                                    ega
                                                    Participant
                                                      @ega

                                                      Ian S C:

                                                      I follow, but your method would depend on there being enough of the spindle and chuck available to clamp on.

                                                      Didn't Myfords come up with a security device on their big bore machines?

                                                      A friend was repeatedly reversing his lathe whilst testing something and was surprised to have the empty three jaw chuck spit out one of its jaws (which he says he managed to catch!)

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