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Lister Drawings

This topic has 79 replies, 11 voices, and was last updated 27 August 2013 at 00:35 by HobbyNut.

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19 March 2013 at 20:32 #114784
HobbyNut
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@hobbynut
I cannot seem to locate a drawing in the series so far, that tells me a few critical dimemensions of the crankcase. The height of the crankshaft from the base for instance.

I remember pulling quite a few of these engines apart back in the 50's, at my fathers Engine Reconditioning shop in Australia. I thought it would be a great next project, after I finish my present 2 or 3!! and as long as health permits.

Edited By HobbyNut on 19/03/2013 20:44:55
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19 March 2013 at 20:32 #22530
HobbyNut
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@hobbynut
19 March 2013 at 21:08 #114794
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
There are a few other missing dimensions such as overal height and length and I also queried the cam dia as its a slack fit in the gear and bearings.

See also this thread

George is a member of the forum, if he does not reply to this thread in a day or two I will PM him or maybe Ennech can shed some light as he has drawn it out in cad. Ennech also intends to supply castings if you don't want to make your own patterns and get castings done.

Edited By JasonB on 19/03/2013 21:19:09
19 March 2013 at 21:12 #114795
Jeff Dayman
Participant
@jeffdayman43397
The drawings are not clear to me either. Lots of dims a machinist does not need and some missing that they do need. The non-draughtsman non-machinist non-model engineer illustrator in Greece strikes again I think. When all drawings are published I will have a go at simplifying and correcting them for my own use and for anyone interested (but not in the open forum).

JD
20 March 2013 at 16:27 #114835
craig fowler
Participant
@craigfowler33724
If the drawings are accurate enough you could simply scale off of that….

Although that isnt a very acurate way i know!
20 March 2013 at 17:50 #114844
Jeff Dayman
Participant
@jeffdayman43397
Craig, I do all my layouts in 3D CAD (use it professionally) so I remove all doubt about fits and sizes before cutting metal. I can't debate the accuracy of what features and sizes are shown on the published "drawings" because I don't have a full size Lister engine in front of me, but if I do lay it out myself on CAD using the ME "drawings" as a general guide to major dimensions I know nothing will interfere and I will be able to machine it to my drawings.

JD
20 March 2013 at 19:51 #114847
Diane Carney
Moderator
@dianecarney30678
Posted by Jeff Dayman on 19/03/2013 21:12:39:

The non-draughtsman non-machinist non-model engineer illustrator in Greece strikes again I think.

JD – the illustrator simply redraws the drawings to make them suitable for publication. They are then meticulously checked against the author's original before being passed for print. He is not required to have any technical input whatsoever. He is skilled at what he does and very rarely makes an error. It is not on to blame him for anything missing on a drawing.

As has been mentioned, George Punter does indeed contribute to the forum occasionally but an answer may not appear immediately. I will ask him to take a look at this thread.

Diane
20 March 2013 at 20:17 #114849
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Diane, I have already started to make a list of items that I would like George to take a look at so if you want to leave it to me I will PM him tomorrow. I have already exchanged a few PMs with him.

Regarding what you said above, this does highlight one of the problems, a non technical illustrator faithfully reproduced what a contributor sends in. This reproiduction is then checked against the original drawing like for like but nobody with a technical understanding looks at the drawing so errors in the original will just be passed on to the published drawing. This may be why we have 6.0mm shafts mating with 6.4mm holes, Items in one view dimensioned 7.0mm and 7.09mm in another, a 3mm hole also dimensioned 3.4mm, etc.

I'm not knocking Georges work but these sort of things would could be picked up by someone with an enquiing technical mind before they ever go to print.

J
21 March 2013 at 09:25 #114865
Diane Carney
Moderator
@dianecarney30678
No problem Jason. I am happy to leave the co-ordination to you.

In recent issues, Stewart has been pretty sharp at pointing out exactly those kinds of errors and has corected a few. Even I spotted one!!! I can't vouch for what has gone before, of course. And, to be fair to the illustrator, he does pick up on obvious errors on occasions. That said, we can not be expected to pick up on missing dimensions etc. as we are not constructing the part/model. Also part A might be mating with part B which may be several issues down the line. There is therefore no way of avoiding some errors getting through onto the page. Hence the section of this forum dedicated to correcting drawing errors.
I shall say no more as I am getting a sensation of deja vue! We've been here before, once or maybe twice…

Diane
21 March 2013 at 12:33 #114884
Jeff Dayman
Participant
@jeffdayman43397
"He is skilled at what he does and very rarely makes an error."

With respect Diane, I don't agree. In the last few years errors and poor draughting practices from the illustrator have been discussed several times in this forum.

At the very least, I suggest some reading on basic engineering drawing practice before preparing drawings for a technical magazine like ME. A good place to start would be "a manual of engineering drawing practice" by Simmons and Maguire, isbn 0 340 17996 1. (or its' modern equivalent.)

It is a mistake in my opinion to accept mediocrity in any engineering drawing especially when training and literature on the basic techniques is freely available.

If you compare the illustrator's work to excellent drawings by others like Alan Jackson (recent stepperhead lathe) Neville Evans (various locomotives) or Anthony Mount (stationary engines) there is a world of difference.

Best regards JD
21 March 2013 at 12:47 #114885
David Clark 13
Participant
@davidclark13
Hi There

I believe I arranged for a copy of the relevant BS manual to be sent to the illustrator a couple of years ago. I doubt Diane has a copy though.

I can't remember what it is called, I will dig my copy out over the weekend if I have time.

regards david
22 March 2013 at 11:44 #114965
Sub Mandrel
Participant
@submandrel
The Tubal Cain book in the WPS series might be easier for a non-engineer to digest.

Neil
23 March 2013 at 08:05 #115032
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Just an update, I have heard back from George, just one query to confirm and then I will post the list of missing details.

J
23 March 2013 at 09:34 #115042
Diane Carney
Moderator
@dianecarney30678
Posted by David Clark 1 on 21/03/2013 12:47:58:

the relevant BS manual …. I doubt Diane has a copy though.

That's the question… which 'Standard' are we working to? I will get the right one out.
23 March 2013 at 09:47 #115046
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
BS 8888 or the older BS 308 but as Neil says Tubal Cain's book No 13 in the WS series would make easier reading MHS may even give you a discount

Myself I would just be happy to have all the info to make the part and no errors, can be laid out as the contributor wishes.

J

Edited By JasonB on 23/03/2013 10:00:59
26 March 2013 at 10:53 #115346
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Some revisions here, crankshaft ctr height to follow
2 April 2013 at 15:46 #115885
HobbyNut
Participant
@hobbynut
George has been gracious enough to send me any info I want. I cut and welded this yesterday, to see what a fabricated crankcase would be like.

The ribs between the RH bosses are for fabricating and cutting ease. All holes are undersize. I will cut the base, top and ends today. maybe get it assembled tonight.
2 April 2013 at 16:12 #115888
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
That looks good, I've fabricated parts in a similar way but my welding is not as good as yours.

J
2 April 2013 at 18:27 #115904
HobbyNut
Participant
@hobbynut
Thanks Jason, my welding aint as good as it used to be, mainly because ,my sight aint either!

I just finished cutting the base, the cylinder mounting plate(top), the RH end, flange and cover.

I intend to cut the LH end from 2" MS plate, it takes 40 mins on the waterjet.
2 April 2013 at 18:31 #115905
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Oh thats a thick bit, I would have used a flat plate at the bottom and a suitable section of tube but I suppose if you can get the WJ for free then why not.

How much taper is the waterjet likely to leave over the 2" thickness? I've only had stuff upto 10mm cut and its noticable on that.
2 April 2013 at 18:50 #115906
Sub Mandrel
Participant
@submandrel
I wish that I could weld like that. My welds look like the death throes of a convoy of poisoned slugs.

Neil

Edited By Stub Mandrel on 02/04/2013 18:51:06
2 April 2013 at 20:30 #115914
HobbyNut
Participant
@hobbynut
Jason, the taper over the 2" in this case is .011" Our Dynamic head is malfunctioning at the moment, and the taper would have been less than .005"
2 April 2013 at 21:07 #115921
HobbyNut
Participant
@hobbynut
More Water Cut parts. I now have everything to build the main crankcase.
3 April 2013 at 10:37 #115953
Sub Mandrel
Participant
@submandrel
Hi Hobbynut,

I'd struggle to cut cake that thick! Preumable you have direct access to the water jet cutter, I hate to think what it would cost to pay for getting that done!

Neil
3 April 2013 at 14:57 #115975
HobbyNut
Participant
@hobbynut
Posted by Stub Mandrel on 03/04/2013 10:37:23:

"Hi Hobbynut,

I'd struggle to cut cake that thick! Preumable you have direct access to the water jet cutter, I hate to think what it would cost to pay for getting that done!

Neil"

Neil, It took 40 mins to cut that piece. Yes, I work at programming and cutting. We have 2 machines.We regularly cut 5" hardened plate for the oil industry. Cost of that piece about $100.00 to an outsider.

Here is is tacked together.
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