Backgear for a Chinese 920 lathe?

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Backgear for a Chinese 920 lathe?

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  • #329369
    Andrew Tinsley
    Participant
      @andrewtinsley63637

      I am mulling over putting a back gear on a generic Chinese 920 lathe (Warco 918 / Chester 920 style lathe).

      This is just an armchair exercise at the moment. Looking on the web, there seems to be only one chap that has done this and he used epicyclic gears from a car automatic gearbox. Not having ready access to such a gear system, my thoughts turned to a hefty mains DC motor that I have (rated 500 rpm and 1 HP).

      Now if I could devise a system to change belts from the original 1450rpm motor to the DC motor. This should decrease the speed of the lathe by 2/3rds approx.

      Now is there any reason that this would not work as a "backgear"? I usually miss the glaringly obvious in these matters! I appreciate that these lathes are shall we say a kit?, But I would happily do all the necessary fettling and mods such as firmer tool set up, tumbler reverse etc.

      If such a motor mod is feasible to give a pseudo backgear, the machine would be mainly used for screwcutting, so maybe it is a matter of simply changing the motor for the lower speed one and forgetting the complications of a two motor set up

      Constructive comments please? The lathe is going for a song, so very little to lose.

      Andrew.

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      #18755
      Andrew Tinsley
      Participant
        @andrewtinsley63637
        #329375
        Ady1
        Participant
          @ady1

          IMO you're better off getting a machine with a dedicated backgear system

          #329378
          Brian Wood
          Participant
            @brianwood45127

            It would be an interesting and challenging construction, one to learn something from. I would have a go at it, especially as the intended lathe is cheap enough to invest in the idea, even if it fails.

            Good luck

            Brian

            #329380
            Andrew Tinsley
            Participant
              @andrewtinsley63637

              Thanks gents,

              The lathe is lightly used and 5 years old, cost is peanuts, so I may well have a go unless someone can see a problem?

              Andrew.

              #329384
              Another JohnS
              Participant
                @anotherjohns

                Andrew – what is the problem that you are trying to solve?

                The Emco Compact-8 that I have is my "go-to" lathe. I do have a larger English "1124" lathe, that rarely gets used, the Compact-8 does everything well, and the "issues" it has are easily bypassed.

                Threading – I simply spin the chuck by hand, if I am making a short thread. I've learned to keep a leather glove handy for times like this!

                I do have a second Compact-8 with a VFD on it, which was a bolt-on change as the motor was a standard frame; I'll admit that this one was going to be CNC'd, but real work as got in the way, and other than having fun with the spindle motor, it has sat for a year, so no experience turning with it under VFD control.

                 

                Edited By John Alexander Stewart on 27/11/2017 12:00:40

                #329386
                KWIL
                Participant
                  @kwil

                  I have back gear on a smaller lathe but cannot remember when I used it last, VFD control more than copes with most work.

                  #329401
                  Russell Eberhardt
                  Participant
                    @russelleberhardt48058

                    If you just want a lower speed for screw cutting why not just fit a 3-phase motor and vfd?

                    I had a 920 lathe for a couple of years as a second lathe and found it to be a good lathe except for the speed being a bit high for screw cutting. I had to sell one of my lathes to make room for a cnc mill and chose to keep my UK made Atlas clone despite it being rather more worn but because of the back gear and the number of accesories I had made to fit it. I have since fitted a vfd and now rarely use the back gear.

                    Russell

                    #329402
                    Andrew Tinsley
                    Participant
                      @andrewtinsley63637

                      The problem, if any, is that the 920 series of lathes (Copy of the Emco compact 8), has too high a speed range to cut internal threads (usually with blind end!). My nerves are not up to it! So it is either a slower speed motor ( which I have) or build a back gear. I suppose a VFD may be a solution, but I would be running the motor at maybe a third of its rated RPM and I don't feel comfortable with that. Cooling being my main concern . I have seen two motors fry doing that sort of thing!

                      The DC motor looks to be a good bet as it won't cost me anything, as it is on my storage shelf and I would be running at the sort of speed that I want. Doing screw cutting by hand is not on, I have far too much work to even contemplate that! Buying a VDF would probably cost twice what the lathe changed hands for and I really can't see the point as I have a 500 rpm motor to hand that will give me the speeds I want

                      I don't really mind dedicating the 920 to a screw cutting role. I suppose I am a bit leary of the rather small cross section drive belts, and decent cuts, being enough to do some damage to them

                      #329407
                      Bazyle
                      Participant
                        @bazyle

                        There are a lot of these about so a generally applicable solution would be nice rather than a specific one aligned to one motor. Also you want to be able to get the high speed settings still as you are bound to suddenly need it if it isn't available.
                        A back gear also delivers more torque for cuts on larger dia but as you say you want it for screwcutting that isn't a problem, and belts can still deliver reasonable grip.
                        Have you considered the possibility of getting another intermediate pulley into the 'space' at the top rear? (with modified cover)

                        #329412
                        Peter G. Shaw
                        Participant
                          @peterg-shaw75338

                          I have the same problem with my lathe (Warco 220/Mashstroy C210T), minimum speed 125rpm. There is also the problem with inertia meaning that even if I switch off the motor, I have no idea where the carriage will actually stop.

                          My solution is to use a mandrel handle for short lengths. (Definition of short. Whatever you can cope with or risk!) And then risk it on long lengths. Actually, it isn't too bad on long lengths because I can usually stop it early enough and then finish off by mandrel handle.

                          Regards,

                          Peter G. Shaw

                          #329418
                          Andrew Tinsley
                          Participant
                            @andrewtinsley63637

                            Hello Bazyle,

                            I agree that a general solution would be good, as you say "there are a lot of these about". I shall take a good look at the belt drive set up and see what might be done in the way of extra pulleys to reduce the speed.

                            Peter, Using a manual handle on the headstock, or even worse, turning the chuck by hand, is a total non starter for me. I have a lot of blind holes to thread and I have a muscle wasting disease that would make me exhausted after the first couple!

                            The 920 lathe shares this problem with the Emco compact 8, so it would be good to come up with a simple solution. A countershaft of sorts might be an interesting exercise. Without a great deal of work, these machines can be turned into a reasonable lathe, a tumbler reverse is simple to add on and beefing up the tool mounting is also a quick job.

                            Andrew.

                            #329419
                            Bizibilder
                            Participant
                              @bizibilder

                              There was a "slow speed attachment" marketed some years back (80's??) that put an extra pulley pair low down in the drive train area and then onto the regular pulleys. I don't have a 920 so cannot comment further.

                              There was a tumbler reverse published in ME but I don't have the issue numbers to hand – maybe one of the online indexes could help?

                              #329429
                              Andrew Tinsley
                              Participant
                                @andrewtinsley63637

                                Thanks Bizibilder,

                                No problem with a tumbler reverse, that is easy enough to make. I would be interested in the slow peed attachment. That would save me redesigning the wheel!

                                Andrew.

                                #329442
                                KWIL
                                Participant
                                  @kwil

                                  Andrew,

                                  I do a lot of screwcutting at reasonable speed, if it is a long job I just check the motor temperature by hand. Never really had to stop. As for fried motors, if that is a problem, mount an external fan and cool the motor by that means.

                                  Edited By KWIL on 27/11/2017 19:36:35

                                  #329446
                                  JasonB
                                  Moderator
                                    @jasonb

                                    Use an internal threading tool that cuts on the far side of the hole and run in reverse starting at the bottom of the whole so the tool moves out of the hole at whatever speed you fancy

                                    #329452
                                    Andrew Tinsley
                                    Participant
                                      @andrewtinsley63637

                                      Sounds lateral thinking Jason! Might just need to fix up a tumbler reverse for that. But that is a given anyway.

                                      Thanks,

                                      Andrew.

                                      #329458
                                      Mike Poole
                                      Participant
                                        @mikepoole82104

                                        If you just want to slow the machine for an activity like screw cutting you would be OK. If you need to slow the machine to turn large diameters then the increased torque from gearing down could be useful.

                                        Mike

                                        #329594
                                        Peter G. Shaw
                                        Participant
                                          @peterg-shaw75338

                                          Andrew,

                                          Sorry to hear about your medical problems.

                                          Bizibilder,

                                          Spurred on by your comment, my homemade index has come up with a slow speed drive by David Berrecloth for a Warco 918 lathe. Published in MEW54, page 51 issue date 01 Nov 1998. That article then refers back to ME Vol 178 No 4043 Page 693 06 June 1987. and continued in the two following alternate issues.

                                          Regards,

                                          Peter G. Shaw

                                          #329610
                                          Andrew Tinsley
                                          Participant
                                            @andrewtinsley63637

                                            Thanks Peter,

                                            That is a really good lead. I may have the ME articles but certainly not the MEW reference. Can one pay money and get a digital copy from our hosts?

                                            Thanks again,

                                            Andrew.

                                            #329639
                                            Neil Wyatt
                                            Moderator
                                              @neilwyatt

                                              The MEW article is in the archive, but if someone wants to email me a good quality scan of the article I can put it up on this website.

                                              Neil

                                              #329657
                                              Andrew Tinsley
                                              Participant
                                                @andrewtinsley63637

                                                Hello Neil, I don't mind paying to get a sight of the article in the archives. Can one do that?

                                                Regards,

                                                Andrew.

                                                P.S. I can't find the ME articles that were referred to.in my collection of MEs. They finish in 1986, when work and other pressures finally caught up with me. So if anyone can scan those for me I would be very grateful!

                                                #329670
                                                Peter G. Shaw
                                                Participant
                                                  @peterg-shaw75338

                                                  Andrew,

                                                  Send me a PM with your email address. I've already scanned them for my own interest so it's no bother to email them to you.

                                                  Peter G. Shaw

                                                  #329814
                                                  Howard Lewis
                                                  Participant
                                                    @howardlewis46836

                                                    For a variable, low speed, why not make a Mandrel handle?

                                                    The limit on availability of torque is your strength and the length of the handle.

                                                    Howard

                                                    #329820
                                                    Michael Gilligan
                                                    Participant
                                                      @michaelgilligan61133

                                                      Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 27/11/2017 16:48:16:

                                                      … Using a manual handle < etc. >

                                                      .

                                                      Howard,

                                                      May I refer you to Andrew's post ^^^ on the previous page.

                                                      MichaelG.

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