Windows 11 – Bad Experience With Latest Version

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Though most of my computing is done on Linux I have Windows too.   Amongst other things needed for workshop software including Solid Edge, Smaths Studio, and a bunch of radio hobby software.

I often explore Solid Edge on my workshop laptop in front of the telly, and the poor old thing is noticeably slow: 10 years old, Windows 10, 8Gb slowish RAM, 2.4GHz wifi, indifferent graphics, and a hard-drive. Browsing, office, programming Arduinos all acceptable, sluggish with SE and some other software, becoming annoying.

Decided to buy a new one!  Nothing stellar, CPU up to 4x faster, 16Gb fast RAM, SSD, improved wifi and graphics.  Found a suitable machine to meet my needs was available from my nearest Curry’s, price same as best on internet, so bought it.

Instructions said install ‘must have an internet connection’, the machine wan’t ready to go out of the box.   Anyway, plugged in, and it spent about 40 minutes downloading and installing.   Happy with that as a way of getting the latest software, other than there is no choice.  Depending on often better to start with a slightly out of date operating system and update the software later using the normal update process.

The install went to plan until it reached Microsoft’s part!  Microsoft have changed Windows 11 so that it will not install unless the owner sets up a Microsoft Account.   The set-up collects private data, most of it unnecessary, and extremely annoying if one has no use for a Microsoft Account.   B*st*rds,  I thought.  But I went along with it.

Then the real trouble started.   Creating the account failed.   Having taken the email address, Microsoft set up the account, but did not recognise it thereafter.  So now I have a Microsoft Account that doesn’t work and can’t be deleted. Had to find another email address.  That failed in the same way – no error message, just refused.  Microsoft’s online help has nothing sensible to offer, nor do they provide an obvious contact point.

I set up a Microsoft Account via the browser, which turned into another intelligence test.   The set-up includes a solve a graphical puzzle security check that Firefox wouldn’t display.  Good job I own another Windows machine with Edge.   Appeared to work, except the activation code they emailed me wasn’t accepted either online or by the laptop install.  Attempting to reset the password locked the account for, I think 2 weeks.  I was plunged into a broken security maze, nasty.  As forcing users to have a Microsoft Account is new, I guess it’s buggy.

Despite knowing a Microsoft Account is unnecessary,  I decided to take the laptop back to Curry’s and let them sort it.  Top marks to them, I was not the first customer with this problem on the latest W11, and they knew what to do.  Briefly:

• Allow the installer to download until it gets to the Microsoft’s broken set-up
• Disconnect from the internet
• Open a terminal window and type in a magic incantation.  (oobe \bypassnro.  Descibed on the web)  It adds an option to the Microsoft account dialogue.   Worryingly, the linked article notes that Microsoft are working to block the various ways by which the need for an account can be bypassed.
• Reboot the machine. (not connected)
• When the install reaches Microsoft’s broken dialogue, it offers a ‘I do not have an Internet Connection’ option.  Clicking that, proceeds to set W11 up with local accounts, which is exactly what I wanted in the first place.

Pleased to find the computer had not been stuffed full of bloatware by Acer.   Less pleased to find that Microsoft see fit to default to a load of extras I don’t want.  This is a workshop computer, and I don’t need to know what NASDAQ is doing, or any of the other widgets,  So turning these off and getting rid of Edge and 3 or 4 other Microsoft push services is ongoing.

Be warned, not only are Microsoft forcing an unwanted, unnecessary account on new W11 installations, but their implementation is faulty.  If it works, owners get a user account system managed by Microsoft in the cloud that they probably don’t need.  Worse, the system gives Microsoft activity and other information users might wish to keep private.  I do on principle.  If Microsoft’s install is bypassed so W11 uses local accounts instead, then the owner controls security, there is no dependency on Microsoft in the cloud, and the computer doesn’t leak information to them.

Windows 11 isn’t radically different to W10.   Silly things like “where’s the power-off button gone?” rather than major relearning.   But the way Microsoft force change on their customers is obnoxious.  Again!   I am now extremely unwilling to upgrade my other Windows 10 computers to Windows 11.   Microsoft have fouled the nest!  Interesting to see if this is challenged legally: in the past similar methods  ended with huge fines for Microsoft in US, European and other jurisdictions.  Most of the world is tough on monopolies.

Although sorting out the mess wasted several hours of my time, I’m pleased with the new computer.   Solid Edge looks better on screen, and it’s markedly nippy compared with the old one.

Dave

 

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

I’ve been using Microshaft for ages and have been generally happy.  However first it tried to foist “New Outlook” on me for email which is a complete shambles.  My Win10 computer will need to be upgraded; and MS “promise” all kinds of AI widgets which will no doubt cause all kinds of issues as well as harvesting even more information.  I am seriously now considering ditching Windows and moving to Linux, once I have satisfied myself that my Office documents can be opened in LibreOffice and found Linux versions or equivalents of a few specialist apps.  I do have a couple of Outlook365 accounts but those can be accessed using Chrome.   What to do about the workshop computer which mainly just runs the CNC I don’t know – it’s Win10 but could be isolated from the internet  once support ends.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

But where has the show desktop button gone,used to be bottom right on W10 but I can’t find it on W11.

Best just to accept that the evil data lords will get all your info unless you isolate yourself completely from the interweb

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

Dave you can setup win 11 without a Microsoft account when your asked for internet connection say that you do not have one, it then lets you set up a local account. if you want you can in setting change to a local account and again if you wish delete your MS account in the browser.

H

[Harry Wilkes]

On Harry Wilkes Said:

Dave you can setup win 11 without a Microsoft account when your asked for internet connection say that you do not have one, it then lets you set up a local account. if you want you can in setting change to a local account and again if you wish delete your MS account in the browser.

H

Whoops Harry, not so.  Please note I’m reporting a problem with the latest version of the W11 installer.  It changed recently!  This is new behaviour, not how W11 worked before, and it doesn’t support what you suggest.

The install starts by requiring a network connection to download ‘stuff’.  Judging by how long it took, quite a lot, but there’s no way of knowing what it is.  I suspect the laptop comes with a partial operating system, which is brought up-to-date.  The machine isn’t loaded with a working W11 out of the box, so connecting to the internet can’t be avoided, nor can the requirement to create a Microsoft Account.

Once the download is complete, Microsoft have removed the option that previously allowed the user to say ‘I don’t have an internet connection’.  There is no choice, it’s gone.

The workaround used to stay local and complete the install is described in in my post above.

Also, although an unwanted Microsoft Account could be deleted later (and mine can’t because it screwed up and locked), Microsoft have already collected some of the private information I don’t want them to have.   Not good.

In short, a new Microsoft process that tried to force me to do something I don’t want or need and then blew up in my face!

Dave

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Duncan – show desktop is Windows key plus D. Repeat to go back to where you were.
Lots more shortcuts like this that use a letter that sort of stands for the operation.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Hey, brilliant, thanks

[John Haine]

On John Haine Said:

Iam seriously now considering ditching Windows and moving to Linux, once I have satisfied myself that my Office documents can be opened in LibreOffice and found Linux versions or equivalents of a few specialist apps.

I’ve had no problems at all opening all & sundry Office docs – some quite ancient versions – in LibreOffice. In most cases now for Word docs I tend to save them as open document format (OTP) as it’s native to Libre & is completely readable by the vast majority of other Apps or so I understand. I also save some as .pdfs for similar reasons.

Just one note: yes it’s free & very good. If you use it and are similarly satisfied, it does no harm to give a modest donation (as I  did) to the developers as a ‘thank you’ for their hard work although they don’t nag you about it. Also makes it more likely to keep being developed & remain free.

Mike

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Thanks for that recommendation Mike.

[HuubParticipant @huub]

I used RUFUS to install windows 11 (latest) on an old windows laptop that doesn’t fulfill the Microsoft requirements for a W11 update. It works without a problem. It is not an update but a full, clean re installation.

Rufus has some options to install without windows account, without tpm2, with only 2GB ram, etc.

[Huub]

On Huub Said:

I used RUFUS to install windows 11 (latest) on an old windows laptop that doesn’t fulfill the Microsoft requirements for a W11 update. It works without a problem. It is not an update but a full, clean re installation.

Rufus has some options to install without windows account, without tpm2, with only 2GB ram, etc.

Yes, presumably an install from an ISO that doesn’t use Microsoft’s installer?

Though RUFUS Is good, it doesn’t help me much.  My warning relates to a brand-new new laptop that came with a partial install, to be completed on first boot by following a built-in Microsoft process.  There is no ISO, or Windows on a disc; the process is cloud based and depends on an installer built into the computer.

What’s new is Microsoft have removed the ‘No internet’ option.  Makes it difficult for purchasers to avoid creating a Microsoft Account unless they have special knowledge.   RUFUS and other workarounds shouldn’t be necessary.  Buying a laptop, I resent being forced to open an account that benefits Microsoft, and I got extra cross when the account create mechanism provided by Microsoft fouled up, dumping me into a maze that cannot be fixed without special knowledge.   It’s bad.   The problem isn’t W11 as such, it’s Microsoft collecting personal data for commercial reasons and enforcing that by changing the install process.

Dave

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Added to their increasing incompetence!  Viz, people being without email for a week or so as they fouled up with an Outlook update and the ongoing issues people have with Win11 updates.

[Bazyle]

On Bazyle Said:

Duncan – show desktop is Windows key plus D. Repeat to go back to where you were.
Lots more shortcuts like this that use a letter that sort of stands for the operation.

You can also left click on the end of the toolbar on the extreme right to show or hide the desktop.

[peterhod]

On peterhod Said:

On Bazyle Said:

Duncan – show desktop is Windows key plus D. Repeat to go back to where you were.
Lots more shortcuts like this that use a letter that sort of stands for the operation.

You can also left click on the end of the toolbar on the extreme right to show or hide the desktop.

That doesn’t seem to work on mine,but I suspect the display is overlapping the end of the monitor if you get my drift

[KEITH BEAUMONTParticipant @keithbeaumont45476]

I changed from Win 10 to 11 2 weeks ago. First update this week has managed to stop my printer working.

Keith.

[DMRParticipant @dmr]

I got fed up with Microsoft years ago and topics like this just make me smile. Moved to an Apple (which, admittedly gives one a learning curve) and never looked back. Still have an XL machine but it is not allowed anywhere near the internet and I am managing to keep that going electronically.

Dennis

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Peter’s desktop shortcut is new to me. When I move the mouse just to the right of the bell symbol a thin vertical line appears | and after a second the words “show desktop”

[KEITH BEAUMONTParticipant @keithbeaumont45476]

Fortunately, My Epson printer has a Troubleshoot App. This found that the Update had re-assigned the printer to”Default”, what ever that was, so letting the App put my printer name back in the box got the printer working OK again. I doubt I am the only one who is going to be irritated by this fault.

Keith.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

New to me as well.  It even works on Linux Mint as well.

Never too old to learn new tricks!

Russell

[KEITH BEAUMONT]

On KEITH BEAUMONT Said:

I changed from Win 10 to 11 2 weeks ago. First update this week has managed to stop my printer working.

Keith.

I’ve found that to be the case ever since installing W11 quite some time back. Every time an update occurs, I have to reinstall my printer. Bizarre, but thats Windows for you.

Mike

[Mike Hurley]

On Mike Hurley Said:

On KEITH BEAUMONT Said:

I changed from Win 10 to 11 2 weeks ago. First update this week has managed to stop my printer working.

Keith.

I’ve found that to be the case ever since installing W11 quite some time back. Every time an update occurs, I have to reinstall my printer. Bizarre, but thats Windows for you.

Mike

More annoying for me, and downright dangerous, is that Windows upgrades often overwrite my security settings.  Very bad.

Off-the-shelf, Windows is rather too open if one cares about security and privacy, making it necessary to harden it by removing unwanted services and generally tightening up.   Corporates lock-down by installing Windows from a ‘Gold Disc’ containing a tight stripped Windows that users can’t mess with.  They also control what’s allowed with Group Policy settings, and they do not take Windows updates from the internet as we do.  Instead upgrades are usually organised by the IT department and applied by patch management.  Much less reliant on Microsoft and far more controlled.

Domestic users, unless they have deep IT skills and high commitment, have to lock-down manually through the Settings menu and by fiddling with the Registry etc.  Long-winded, and a right pain when Microsoft overwrite all that hard-work by reverting to defaults.

Why do they do it?  Simpler for Microsoft to issue bog-standard overwriting upgrades than it is to adapt to user settings.  So, if a printer or anything else isn’t recognised, upgrades fail-safe by switching to defaults.  The OS is protected, the only downside being the user has to sort any problems out.

Safe, and works well enough if the users computer has a simple set-up. Potentially difficult for them if their configuration isn’t entirely straightforward as they have to diagnose problems and re-install, or whatever.  Not Microsoft’s problem, unless they get the core wrong – it happens!  As we say in the trade, ‘user’ is spelt with a silent ‘L’ – Luser!

Microsoft have a commercial problem with Windows.  In the glory days, when the whole world was buying computers, they made huge profits from selling the operating system and could recruit large numbers of the best programmers available.  Plenty of room for improvement too.   Much more difficult today.   Desktop and laptop sales are falling, the product is mature, and there are good alternatives.  Microsoft failed to penetrate the mobile phone market, and that meant they also failed to profit from the tablet, smart device, and embedded system markets as well.   The battle used to be Windows vs the Unices (Linux / Apple).  Microsoft won the desktop, but lost everything else.   Disaster – that’s where the profits are!

The big winner was Android, a Linux race-tuned for mobile, chosen by Google because Open Source meant they were free to modify Linux as needed with no expensive licence fees.   As UNIX has a big system heritage, it’s rather more reliable and easier to upgrade than Windows.   Most upgrades do not interrupt the user and rarely require reboots, ideal for billions of smart phones, where Windows style upgrades would be a nuisance.

The market is shifting away from Microsoft: I’ve bought two products recently that previously would have interfaced with a Windows App/Installer.   Nope, both work with Android only.

Windows is slowly being edged out and falling profits mean the Windows development team is smaller and less well-funded than it used to be.  In the long run, I fear Windows is in a slow death spiral.   Nothing new in this:  many household names made huge profits from ‘must have’ products until the market saturated, tastes changed, new technology arrived, or a competitor made better/cheaper.  Then firms had to find something else pronto.  Sadly, because finding new ‘must have’ products is really hard, and because small-c conservatism avoids risk and fights change until it’s too late, many firms went bust…

Microsoft are attempting to replace operating system revenue with Cloud, AI, Bing, and other wheezes that collect personal data.  None of these are of any value to me, and my security policy restricts sharing personal data because it’s so easily misused.

I have Windows for compatibility reasons and don’t use it for email, shopping, banking, office work, or general browsing.

Dave

 

[modeng2000Participant @modeng2000]

So I’m begining to think that replacing my Windows 10 system, it’s not compatible, with Windows 11 is a bad idea.

It seems the choice is Linux or Apple.

Any suggestions please?

John

[modeng2000]

On modeng2000 Said:

So I’m begining to think that replacing my Windows 10 system, it’s not compatible, with Windows 11 is a bad idea.

It seems the choice is Linux or Apple.

Any suggestions please?

John

Apple. I used both Apple and PC’s at work but did most of my work on a Mac. While I was there a number of people switched to buying a Mac for home use and there was a universal statement I heard from all of them after a few weeks, “I will never, ever go back to using Windows again”. More software for Mac than Linux but if it’s niche software then vendors may not offer a Mac version. Having said that you can run Windows on a Mac with software if needed. I don’t know about the current situation, Macs now have M4 chips.

[modeng2000Participant @modeng2000]

Thank you both, lots to consider.

John

 

 

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Another thing Microsoft are doing is pushing to put everything on the “cloud” AKA your data at their mercy. Two this week. First was big window saying my personal PC hadn’t been backed up and to do it now. To the cloud of course. Second was on a work PC. I was editing a word document and noticed that the “autosave” slider was off. When I turned it on the only autosave option is to the cloud. It’s also the default location for “save as”. I don’t want my data on some unknown server farm.

[Author]

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