Which New Lathe; choices, choices…

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

KWIL,

 

That’s exactly what I thought.

 

Peter G. Shaw

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

I’ve just aged well,  In fact I’m more like Benjamin Button, I’m just starting to get my adolescent spots which I never had as a teenager.

 

Seriously, On this question of comparing machines.  For those in doubt or needing advice there is a new book in the Workshop Series called (mysteriously) Workshop Machinery and it is available from Amazon, as are all the other titles for less than a fiver delivered (£9.00+ from MHS delivered).

 

Anyway, Thanks guys for the compliments but don’t go too far off thread otherwise he who must be obeyed may complain and the posts will be deleted whether the other posters want it or not.

 

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 30/11/2010 13:06:23

[Justin KeatParticipant @justinkeat18848]

I'm interested in continuing this debate a bit. I too am debating between a Ceriani David 203 and a Wabeco D4000 or D6000.

To those that have a Wabeco or something similar without a gearbox–do you find yourself wishing for one? I feel like parts would take forever to make, rearranging gears each time to thread and then for finishing cuts? I tried using a Central Machinery 7×12 once, and I felt like that, though their gear system is incredibly finicky.

[JonParticipant @jon]

Justin i think the only machines available are the newer late 1960's Harrisons and various Colchesters aka 600 Group. Whereby they have a 'proper' gearbox. No need to faff about with change wheels, just dial in the pitch required with 4 knobs or levers including metric and imperial. You will never know what you have been missing.

Been saying it for years, if the chinese copy that like everything else they do, theyre on to a winner. I think the answer lies in why it hasnt been done so far, too difficult.

Dont think you can do it with an M250 though, even thats much larger than what you have in mind.

Some of the chinese machines can take literally hours to change three change wheels, others around 1/4hr. Still a pain

The only other way is some form of electronic lead screw linked to spindle speed.

[Gone AwayParticipant @goneaway]

Posted by EtheAv8r on 11/11/2010 13:09:06:

No calls to get a second hand Myford, or Boxford or the like – I am not interested as they are too big and heavy to get them to my workshop,

Unfortunately, "big and heavy" tend to go along with solid and stiff. I had a Chinese minilathe for some years and most of the deficiencies of the ilk can be addressed with some effort in tuning, adjusting and a bit of re-design. The lack of stiffness however was a constant scourge.

Then I latched on to a Myford ML7 (in rather worse shape than Tony Jefree's Cowells in the latest MEW). Since my health doesn't permit me to manhandle something like that it was delivered to me in a car by two, actually quite elderly, gentlemen who got it into my garage. It was then moved into my workshop (through the house down the stairs – with right angle turn – and into the basement by the son of a friend and his friend (with all the strength of youth). Took them at most 15 minutes. The motor was missing and we took off the obvious things … tailstock, chuck but complete otherwise.

I spent a winter restoring it and frankly there is no comparison with the minilathe (except perhaps the headstock bore). The minilathe is now gone.

By all means avoid the "big and heavy" if that's what you wish but realise that there is a price.

[SpringbokParticipant @springbok]

If you look at my photo album you will see my Warco WMT500 and my Chester 626 mill both chinese confessand very pleased with both. I have modified both over the years quite a bit and also fitted 3 phase and variable speed. Well worth it. Oh the WMT (multi task) this part is a waste of money you get whiplash no matter how you use it. and NEVER get a mill with a round pillar you will regret it.

Sorry but can only talk from 50 od years of ME experiance. And also the workshop is the old pub cellar c1700s it was an interesting exercise in logistics to get equipment down to it, ref the distance you have to move your lathe, but fortunately have strapping sons, grandsons and one of the granddaughters her partner is one of these bodybuilder types.

Whatever you decide good luck and enjoy the peace and calm of a nice workshop

Bob

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

A lot will depend on how often you will need to screwcut. I done complete models with no screwcutting needed, others with maybe 2or3 screw cut parts. Takes me maybe 10mins to change the wheels at the most on my Warco WM280, compare that to over a thousand hours on a traction engine model and its not even worth thinking about.

If on the otherhand you expect to be doing lots of screw cutting then a gearbox would be the way to go but bear in mind that anything below 6mm – 1/4" is easily done with a die. and its only larger models that will need a lot of screwcutting and they would be outside the capacity of the Wabeco anyway.

J

[EtheAv8rParticipant @etheav8r]

Posted by Sid Herbage on 24/05/2012 00:53:38:

Posted by EtheAv8r on 11/11/2010 13:09:06:

No calls to get a second hand Myford, or Boxford or the like – I am not interested as they are too big and heavy to get them to my workshop,

Unfortunately, "big and heavy" tend to go along with solid and stiff. I had a Chinese minilathe for some years and most of the deficiencies of the ilk can be addressed with some effort in tuning, adjusting and a bit of re-design. The lack of stiffness however was a constant scourge.

Then I latched on to a Myford ML7 (in rather worse shape than Tony Jefree's Cowells in the latest MEW). Since my health doesn't permit me to manhandle something like that it was delivered to me in a car by two, actually quite elderly, gentlemen who got it into my garage. It was then moved into my workshop (through the house down the stairs – with right angle turn – and into the basement by the son of a friend and his friend (with all the strength of youth). Took them at most 15 minutes. The motor was missing and we took off the obvious things … tailstock, chuck but complete otherwise.

I spent a winter restoring it and frankly there is no comparison with the minilathe (except perhaps the headstock bore). The minilathe is now gone.

By all means avoid the "big and heavy" if that's what you wish but realise that there is a price.

Sid

If you look at my post on 26/11/2010 you would see that my final choice was the Wabeco D6000E – which is in fact a bit heavier and greater capacity than an ML7 at about 155Kg without stand. My earlier post referred to 200+ Kg lathes and I did not realise at that time that the Myford was so small and light – not that I wanted one (and still din't) but there was so much 'Myford Fanboy' stuff and I had seen old lathes in the 250 – 450 Kg range and mistakenly believed Myfords were similar.

Big and heavy does not necessarily equate to stiffness and rigidity, and it is arguably easier to build a small stiff and rigid lathe than a big one.

[EtheAv8rParticipant @etheav8r]

Posted by Justin Keat on 23/05/2012 16:21:00:

I'm interested in continuing this debate a bit. I too am debating between a Ceriani David 203 and a Wabeco D4000 or D6000.

To those that have a Wabeco or something similar without a gearbox–do you find yourself wishing for one? I feel like parts would take forever to make, rearranging gears each time to thread and then for finishing cuts? I tried using a Central Machinery 7×12 once, and I felt like that, though their gear system is incredibly finicky.

Justin

Having a gearbox may be a bit more convenient… but changing the gras is the work of minutes and not an issue. It is only required for screwcutting (as far as I am aware) and I have never needed to change them from the default setup. The D6000E is not perfect (what is?) but I am glad I chose it over the Ceriani as that is a much smaller machine.

 

D4000E and D6000E are very different machines size and capacity wise.  I fell in love with the D4000E but it was too small and dinky, and for the relatively small extra cost of the D6000E you get a lot more metal for your money – but not low cost like machines from China.

Edited By EtheAv8r on 24/05/2012 11:27:19

[Ian FowkesParticipant @ianfowkes89537]

I have a Chester DB7VS which appears to be essentially the same machine as the Warco WM180. While having the basic 7 x 12 dimensions of many so called mini lathes it is rather more substantial than most weighing in at well over 50kgs and is fairly rigid although not to the same extent as the Myford and Harrison machines I was brought up on. It came with 3 & 4 jaw chucks, tailstock chuck, faceplate, drive dog, centres, steadies and a full set of changewheels for both metric and imperial screwcutting so it was perfectly usable without much further expenditure. It also came with a set of TCT tools but the quality of those was not to the same standard as everything else.

The machine did have the usual Chinese rough edges and did need a fair amount stripping, cleaning and adjusting to bring it up to standard but since then has has served me well.

The only serious criticism I can make is the tendency of the motor to overheat when turning large diameters at low speeds, first discovered when I noticed a smell while turning 6" diameter driving wheels it does mean plenty of long breaks during such work. Smaller diameters and higher speeds are no problem.

Ian.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

One thing you don't need to worry about is the weight of even the larger "hobby" size lathes, mine weighs in at 275kg, I had to move it 10meters to the work shop, then lift it onto the steel stand I had built for it. I did this on my own, rollers across the floor(its concrete), then lifting it with two fence strainers (these are a simple ratchet winch), the lift was about a foot at a time, with wooden blocks placed under it at each stage, the whole thing took about 2hrs, I did take the motor off for the lift, its a fairly heavy 1.5 hp single phase one. I think the most difficult bit was reattaching the motor, but it went well, just takes time. It's a 1325 BH type made in Taiwan, I'm glad I did'nt get a smaller one, it's amazing the jobs that come along, there are times when an even bigger lathe could be used, and it does the little jobs OK too. Ian S C

[EtheAv8rParticipant @etheav8r]

Problem I have is access across my (wife's) beautifully (and expensively) landscaped garden down some stone steps to the meadow behind, where I built my workshop (screened off by Laurel and trees), a wiggly journey of about 60 meters). ……And then I have "if you pop your clogs first – what on earth am I going to do with that lot – it all weighs a ton".

However the Sieg KX3 came in at 200Kg and I managed that OK – got it into the workshop on a pallet truck at delivery time and got it up on the stand using a borrowed engine hoist all on my own, so the actuat fact is I could probably have gone up to 250Kg…….. but 200 was a challenge. Problem is you don't know until you try, and when it is your first time one tends to err on the side of caution without experienced help on hand.

[JonParticipant @jon]

Posted by EtheAv8r on 24/05/2012 11:24:03:Having a gearbox may be a bit more convenient… but changing the gras is the work of minutes and not an issue. It is only required for screwcutting (as far as I am aware) and I have never needed to change them from the default setup. EtheAv8r on 24/05/2012 11:27:19

That will be down to the individual machine.

Secondly the change wheels setup is not only for the pitch required even with a 'proper' gearbox it also does the traverses. A proper gearbox as in Harrison and Colchester not chinese. If i wanted to change from say a 0.1mm metric pitch to say a 3TPI imperial, it would take me about 15 secs!

So if intended to cut a larger pitch you wouldnt want to power feed with same change wheel setup when turning to size. That then means two change wheel changes for what could be a 3 minute job on a 600 Group lathe. even the easier ones to change, in someones own words take 10 mins, thats an extra 20 mins on a total 3 min job. 1000hrs then becomes 130hrs!

Best thing i ever did was scrap the modded Myford 12 year ago, any threading had to be done with taps and dies even though had full set of change wheels.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

NEVER get a mill with a round pillar you will regret it.

Given the choice of a mill with a round column that I could afford, or no mill, the round column machine won – and no regrets. Particularly as the first round column mill I bought (an Emco FB2 clone) has a full length key to maintain head alignment (not all round column mills loose position when the head is moved !).

I also have an RF30 mill/drill – not yet fully installed, but a bigger machine that was, again, affordable. With 130mm of quill travel (and a bit of forward planning with regard to tooling) I don't anticipate to much trouble.

Either machine is light years ahead of using a vertical slide on the lathe – a very restricted, frustrating arrangement almost totally lacking rigidity.

Just as well that HH didn't take this advice – MEW would have been rather light on milling articles over the years had he done so !

£0.02

Nigel B.

[AndyfParticipant @andyf]

Posted by Ian Fowkes on 24/05/2012 11:24:39:

…. The only serious criticism I can make is the tendency of the motor to overheat when turning large diameters at low speeds….

Ian, bit off topic this, but I've just been addressing that issue on the same lathe, badged as a Warco WM180, with a computer fan: < http://andysmachines.weebly.com/motor-cooling-fan.html >

Andy

Edited By Andyf on 24/05/2012 22:24:13

[JonParticipant @jon]

NEVER get a mill with a round pillar you will regret it.

Must be the reason i have kept the old machine some 8 years after getting a dovetail jobby.

So what are peoples perceptions?

The belief that as a dovetail type is raised or lowered it is true! not

If thats the case a round type is just as accurate, so who is kidding who. I never had a problem with my small RF25, just measure up tools above working height needed for the job and leave alone. Alternative is put one of those electric edge finders on.

Perhaps its another reason that machine is so accurate i can guarantee machining something up to be within 1/4" at 100 yards 3 dimensionally. Cant get within 8" on bigger dovetailed mill.

As you should be aware unused beds etc should be locked down. In doing so on dovetail types even with the slightest play will move zero!

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Jon on 24/05/2012 21:23:55:

in someones own words take 10 mins, thats an extra 20 mins on a total 3 min job. 1000hrs then becomes 130hrs!.

Jon I also said it depends how much screwcutting the person needs to do, Take my 2" traction engine maybe 1500hrs work and all I screwcut was one 1/4" square screw & nut and one 1/2" bsp fitting. so thats 20mins in 1500hrs. (my gearbox gives three feeds without changing wheels so don't really change for feed rates)

If evey part needed screwcutting then yes it would add a lot of time to the job but in Model Terms you don't do a lot of screwcutting, maybe you do on your commercial work.

J

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

……And then I have "if you pop your clogs first – what on earth am I going to do with that lot – it all weighs a ton".

Just tell her to stick an advert on gumtree

Free lathe, mill and all tooling from garden shed

First 100 quid secures

Buyer uplifts

She'll be beating them off with a stick

[Author]

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