Which New Lathe; choices, choices…

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Terry.

No, I don’t think this lathe comes with Power Cross Feed, nor any change to the Tumbler Reverse mechanism.

While I’m here though, can you tell me what kind of chuck fitting your new Warco lathe has?

 

Martin.

[EtheAv8rParticipant @etheav8r]

Posted by Terryd on 24/11/2010 21:57:19:

Hi There,

 

Does the machine have Powered cross feed, I was thinking of tbuying one but didn’t think it was available with this facility?  Also have they overcome the problem of the reverse mechanism on the leadscrew?

 

Terry

 

 

Not aware of any problem with reverse on leadscrew, nothing found on searching for problems with Wabeco, all worked fine in my ‘playing’, and they have a 5 year warrenty.  No power cross-feed.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The warco lathe has a 52mm parallel spigot and a flange that takes 3 studs, fiddly to get to especially with the faceplate, also the 3 jaw is quite tight on the spigot to keep concentricity.

 

I think the Wabeco is the same chuck fitting as the My old Emco, simmilar to the warco but rather than a parallel spigot it has a slight taper on a 4mm long spigot so once the nuts are loosened just a tap with the heel of your hand will release the chuck.

 

Jason

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi EtheAv8r,

 

The leadscrew reverse mechanism has a reverse lever but was only operable by trying to access an ‘inaccessible ‘ nut see here.  I just wondered if they had managed to overcome this problem.yet.

 

T

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Blowlamp,

 

It is flange fitting, which while a bit inconvenient at least overcomes the problems I had with my Boxford unscrewing when using in reverse.  I would have preferred a camlok but couldn’t justify the expense for my limited Hobby use.  I had  chance of a Harrison m300 but my colleague insisted in sending it to a local auction which I could not attend,  It raised £10.00 Yes ten pounds

 

Terry

[LathejackParticipant @lathejack]

EtheAv8r

 

 Wow! I was convinced you would go for the Ceriani. In some of Wabecos old adverts for the D6000 they used to proudly boast that it could ‘Remove 10 mm of stock in a single pass’. A 5 mm depth of cut is a bit extreme i know, but interesting to try. It would be interesting to know how it performs compared to the WM280, which is based on the Wabeco, owned by JasonB and Terryd. The 280 looks just as heavily built, if not a bit heavier.

 

 Oh God! An M300 going for ten pounds. I’m going to have to sit down for a long time with a very strong coffee and a huge pile of biscuits before i get over that one.

Edited By Lathejack on 26/11/2010 04:44:33

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Lathejack,

 

If you think my example of the M300 was a bit of a shock, how about this.

 

The father of one of my neighbours worked in a local well known engineering firm (Alfred Herbert).  When the Company closed down he took retirement but he spotted an almost unused machine in the R & D dept and asked if he could buy it for his son, my neighbour. 

 

Yes he was told you can have it for scrap value, and as the old boy was a lifetime served employee they charitably estimated it at £20.00  He was told to take the tooling and the other ‘bits and pieces’ as well because it was all going in the skip and it would save them the bother.

 

My neighbour is now the proud owner of a fully equipped and tooled Bridgeport Vertical milling machine.  That will be a lot of strong coffee and several packets of chocolate digestives I think!!!

 

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 26/11/2010 09:18:10

[EtheAv8rParticipant @etheav8r]

Terryd

 

OK now I understand what you are saying (as the leadscrew reverse is at the flick of a switch and could not be simpler…) the ability to cut left had threads……  I will ask the supplier about this, but to be honest, I cannot see me ever wanting to cut left hand threads, with the caveat of ‘never say never..).

 

Leatherjack

 

I have to say that I thought I would be going for the Ceriani, mainly because I did not think I would be able to afford the D6000E which would have been my machine f choice….. the Ceriani is very pretty and looks an excellent machine.  Capacity-wise it compares more closely with the Wabeco D3000E, which has just slightly bigger numbers, except the motor, which is double the power, plus with the independant infinitely variable feed speed, and fine control (but more winds for a given travel distance in all axis)  put it ahead of the Ceriani for me. 

 

The D6000E is a much bigger and more capable machine, and the Newall DRO, though more expensive than the Chester one they quoted for the Ceriani, is a much better device in terms of capability and robustness.  The Wabeco won out because it is very well made, beautifully engineered, the controls were wonderfully smooth, it is way bigger and chunkier and more capable, hardenened bed (Ceriani not hardened), very quiet when running, I liked the way it works and is operated, and it has a significanly bigger capacity and capability and I am confident I will never want anything bigger.  Add the 5 year warranty, the fact that the distributer is just 40 minutes up the road, and the fact that the dealer was flexible and willing to negotiate a financially attractive full package that got me all I wanted to get started at a price I was (eventually) willing to (just) afford.

 

The Chester DRO supplied and fitted complete was at a very low price (like a third of the Newall on the Wabeco)  – low enough to make it supiciously low, but even so the final costs of the Ceriani package vs the Wabeco package were not that far apart, and the D6000E deal makes for so much better value.

 

I think I could have bought any of the 4 machines in my original list and been happy, but now I know that in the future I won’t be wishing I had gone for a bigger machine.  In all honesty the D4000E will do all I want at the moment, but for the difference in price the D6000E gives so much more potential.

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi EtheAv8r,

 

Did you go for the larger bored spindle because that is one thing, that while not immediately obvious, the larger the better.  There is nothing more frustrating than having to turn the end of a 25 mm shaft and find that it is beyond the capacity of the spindle and you haven’t got the expensive fixed steady.

 

I’m also interested to know what extras you bought, eg 4 jaw sc chuck, 4 jaw independent, travelling steady, fixed 3 point steady etc or can you get after market bits which match the lathe?  Sorry if I seem nosy but I am genuinely interested.

 

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 26/11/2010 12:04:00

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

EtheAv8r,

 

You will not regret going for the Newall microsyn, I decided a long time ago that an industrial DRO was always going to be better than a cheapy and the Newall scales are extremely robust and accurate. All my machines are equiped with Newall.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Jason and Terry.

Thanks for the information on the Warco lathe.

Terry… I’m still sat next to Lathejack, peering at a soggy M300 lathe brochure, whilst crying my eyes out and thinking about what could have been with the £38.50 I have in my pocket.

 

Martin.

[EtheAv8rParticipant @etheav8r]

Terry

 

My package is:

D6000E Lathe and standard accessories
Base Stand
Chip Tray & Splash Back
Levelling Feet
Start Set 2:
   Set of 6 Carbide tools
   Precision Quick Action Drill Chuck
   Taper Shaft for Drill Chuck
   Quick Action Tool Holder – Basic Body
   Quick Action Tool Holder for Drill Steel
   Quick Action Tool Holder for Turning Steel
Milling Table
Fixed Steady
160mm Independant 4 Jaw Chuck
Flange for 4 Jaw Chuck
20 Piece Milling & Cutting set
Small Machine Vice
Newall 2 Axis DRO fully installed (again with 5 year Warrenty).

 

Deliver set for my B’day in February.  Workshop electrics completed yesterday and all certificated, and next I have to get a self leveling floor screed installed – looking for an experienced local contracter to do this as I want it perfect.

 

Yes, as with most every lathe you can get aftermarket and OEM bits, will I will add in due course, plus I will probably add more Wabeco bits where and when required.  It is very nice kit.

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Martin,

 

If you look at my other post you could’ve had the M300 and a fully equipped bridgeport and still left with enough for a half bottle of whisky to celebrate

Terry

[PekkaNFParticipant @pekkanf]

Hi all,

 

I hear stories of the lathes that only a vicars wife has been using on sundays to turn candles for diner tabel, but never seen one here.

 

I’m not wery experienced but maybe I’m not very inexperienced either. I hope someone can learn from this. Long story and fun to have a field day with, enjoy.

 

MY INPUT: When it comes to choosing a lathe I believe it’s hard to buy right one first time.
 
If you are new to hobby, try to learn from this and prepare to do your own mistakes – it will be a character building experience!

Snif I:

Sometime time round 1993 –  1995 or so I was buying my first own metal lathe, I had been using some ten years earlier good lathes at the school –  I sort of had an idea what lathes do, but I never used cheap/small lathes before.
 
My choices (Pre EU, Pre internet) were practically limited on what was advertised on ME mag.
 
I was considering Myford Diamond 10, but the smuck brochure and high price of accessories put me off. Also it was just a tad too big for my two room apartment (HAH! I moved to house only two years later and then I got an in-house-garage).
 
Because I never seen on tried them before and there was no way asking opinion of fellow model engineers then (ah… the internet), I was buying my first lathe on speck only – you know the claims seller dares to put on paper. Only thing relatively clear is centre height and such. This gives you an idea what you can clamp on chuck or bolt onto face plate. It really doesn’t mean you can machine it!
 
I bought “Minilor” with some accesories and was planning to buy some more accessories. Buying that petit merde was one of the biggest mistakes on my life. Never trust Frencies – incidently I had Citroën Xantia for years and although it had some excentric engineering it was a nice car and gave me years of joy. Not so rosy experince with the lathe though.

See this: http://www.lathes.co.uk/minilor/index.html
It gives a whole lot more glossy picture of the product than it is in reality. Plastic knobs could be replaced etc. obvious things. It looks quite handsom on the picture, but apron/cross slide, tool holder, tail stock, spindel stoc etc. are made of “Special alloy” or something like that on advertising text. It could be zink or aluminium, but it’s pretty miserable stuf for a metal cutting lathe. Also the only the transvese lead screw it trapetzoidal,  all others are standard 60 decrees.
 
BIG MISTAKE buying on speck only, those numbers give you some indication, but after a mistake you learn to read between the lines.

I did send my letter to a dealer explaining my reasoning on how fit this is to purpose, but I got back a friendly letter, little sympathy and couragement to learn how to use it. I could not have sent it back anyway, losses would have been too great with the customs, air freight etc. I just had to swallow my anger and pride and do with a totaly inadequate lathe.

Part of disapointment was my own fault, I bought a lathe that would be small enough to fit into my appartment easily, but it would not be big enough for anything more than most immediate needs. Think big.

This lathe would have need a major redesing and converting it to a usable one would need a large milling machine and lathe to fabricate all other components but lathe bed, lead screw, chuck, motor and maybe a tail stock barrel. Maybe I’ll take it from there after I buy a good lathe and it has done it’s purpose of being unused expensive ornament on my garage.
 
Did I learn from this? NO. Can’t even sell it, because only someone who is just startting a hobby would buy it. Karma would get me in the end.

Actually, I learned a little, but it was expensive to learn:

* I learned what not to buy = on tec spec only.

* I knew better how lathe size and work size relates, specially on flimsy machines

* I was pretty fed up with this “quality”
* I will never buy from this supplier again – fool me once….

Snif II:

I checkked Myford once more, and on that time the price was way too high to me. Part was strong pound, part was that they had dropped cheaper machines from production. To me it would have made sense to buy an entry level machine and after assesing the quality be confident eneugh to by later a bigger machine. Call me an old fool, but from any wendor I buy first something small just to find out how it works.

 

I got pretty good price on about myford size lathe, 120 kg. MT4 head stock, MT3 tail stock. This time I knew that the qulity would not be there, but neither would be the risks. With this amount of the money I could not have had ANY Myford from UK to my front yard and not to mention that I would have bought it without seeing it and arranged pick up, freight etc.

 

So I bought pretties flower of communism: CQ9325, it was deliverd in a van, I measured it with a test bar and it seemed to be ok. No plastic gears this time. Ugly as hell, but I was buying cheap.

This guy seems to happy with it:
http://users.picknowl.com.au/~gloaming_agnet/cq9325rev.html

However, this lathe has few short comings:

* Ergometry is very poor, some features are outright dangerous

* Tailstock travell is 35 mm, speck says 50 mm, way too short even on speck.
* Tailstock design is poor in every respect.
* Toolpost/topside design is weak
* Belt drive abysmal, adjustement, dessign, motor mount is marginal. Myford style is superior.
* Handles are crooked, many holes looks like they hand drill these “on situ”.
* Weird bed wi

[adyParticipant @ady]

Looks like the biz, fabby spindle bore too.

The only thing I really wouldn’t want is the tapered roller bearings, the rest can be fixed, as the guy in the link is doing, make another tailstock bit etc.

if I was you I would get a set of spare roller bearings…or even two…before you can’t.

 

The only thing missing is a t-slotted cross slide

Edited By ady on 28/11/2010 09:59:23

[PekkaNFParticipant @pekkanf]

Darn, lost about 1/3 of my ramblings…Obiviously there is somewhere antirant filter on this board…..

 

Ady, are those bearing coming scarce? You owe me and answer, you are pressing my buttons with taht slotted cross slide…It would not work anyway with this type bed and cross slide structure – it’s not meant for milling.

 

 Ok, I’ll fill the end of this rant here:

 

* Screws and fairly many parts are sub-standard, these are replaceable, but inside parts are probably worse I’m affraid.

What really pisses me off is that in some parts this lathe is fairly reasonable, but then some corners are cut and some properties are just a bad design and it would not not have cost anything to have them fixed.

 

I don’t have regrets with this one, I’m nor afraid to rebuild the parts, because it’s cheap and it can be only improved. Drilling holes to Myford and rebuilding a new cross slide etc. would take a lot of conffidence. Resale value of this lathe is no consideration

Snif III:

I got (as a freebie – when I bought old 1,5 metric ton milling machine) old Myford 10 copy, made in Taiwan. Even judging from the copy:
* Myford design looks odd, but it definately has it’s merits
* Myford design is least a magnitude better
* Diamond 10 would have been perfect first lahe for me.
* Can’t compare the quality from the copy, but even the copy is better than my first lathe or my “new” lathe.

I’m not saying anything on this line, because it would employ moderators. No need for smilies.

Story does not end here:

I have been looking old light industrial lathes lately in 400-1000 kg range, they are rare and much sought after here.
I need a lathe that is a lathe, I don’t do milling with a lathe, so compromises towards milling are not needed. I need to wallow on this mater a litle.

I envy all you guys living in UK, because you seem to have an endless suppy of ex-industrial machines and have a nerve of complaining aboubt the situation!

UK seems to be pretty polarized on two camps:
* Myford owners
* Chinese lathe owners

Trences are dug an bomardment continues. Where the hell are are owners of other brand owners, such Wabeco and industrial machines? Are they all secretly happy and munching popcorn?

PekkaNF

[adyParticipant @ady]

Ady, are those bearing coming scarce? You owe me and answer

 

I aint got a clue.

What I do know is that a really good lathe can become a lifelong friend and if there’s a bit you cant fix then get a spare part or two and then(barring a disaster) you’re fixed for life because that’s the only bit you can’t make yourself.

 

Slotted cross slide:

Plagiarised from L H Sparey “The amateurs lathe” a book you should get by the way, I have two.

The slotted cross slide

One of the essential characteristics of the successful turner is a scrupulous attention to detail, and this practice may well be extended to the choice of the lathe itself. Details which to the novice may seem unimportant can contribute very greatly to the ease of manipulation and the versatility of the amateurs machine.

A typical instance is provided by the cross slide of the small lathe. On a great number of these machines this component is provided with a variety of T shaped slots enabling vertical slides angle plates and milling spindles to be bolted into place on the carriage.

Thus milling operations, and certain types of boring may be readily undertaken and the scope of the lathe is increased out of all proportion to this seemingly insignificant addition.

 

He then has a go at american lathes etc.

 

Buy the book, you’ll never regret it, the guy was pretty amazing.

[Billy MillsParticipant @billymills]

PekkaNF

You have left out the third UK group, the Colchester/Harrison owners, we just enjoy our great British machines that are industrial grade products not hobby machines.

Regards,

Alan.

[PekkaNFParticipant @pekkanf]

Ady, thaks for the answer. I’m not sure what bearings (code) it has, but if I have to take it appart for any reason, I’ll order the spares , just in case. This is a little problem of course: On a very good lathe you never will need spindle bearings and on very bad one, you don’t want! Broken spinde bearings would be very good excuse to save some money towards a good lathe.

 

I have a Spareys “bible”, it’s probably the first book I bought on this subject and it is very good and at parts relevant book even today. But, I have a funny feeling, that it was writen for a very different set of circumstances: It was usual to have a lathe, but milling machines were relatively rare hobby equipment. I see the benetit for a milling and boring operations in a lathe, but for my purposes I need lathe only for a lathe work. I understand completely if someone likes to do most of the milling operations in the lathe. Most British instructions assume this and some tools and methods actually exploit this briliant way.

 

Thanks Alan, I’ll have a look.

 

PekkaNF

* typoszz….

Edited By PekkaNF on 28/11/2010 16:05:46

[Bill DawesParticipant @billdawes]

I bought a Clarke CL500M a couple of years ago. I was not sure if the desire to get involved in model engineering would last or how serious it would get but I thought that for about £800 for a brand new machine I could not go far wrong. I have to say that so far I am pleased with my choice. I accept it does not have the quality of Myford etc but having seen a recent advert for a Myford for about 9 grand, well it takes a lot of justification for that sort of money. Lovely looking machine and would love to have one but that is some way off if ever.

The versatilty of the lathe/mill has been a godsend. i know all the arguments about used quality machines etc and this no doubt is the way many people prefer to go and I wouldn’t argue that is the right way for them but for the moment the CL500M does me just fine. I have improved it lately by changing to a 3 phase motor and a WEG inverter which is brilliant although still refining the right combination of pulley ratios to get optimum speed/torque out of the motor.

The weight of the CL500M is about 350kg if I remember right but as someone else said it is not likely you will be moving it around frequently (I assume) a one off hire charge for an engine hoist sorted that problem out.

Bill Dawes

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

All the bearings I’v seen on Chinese/ Taiwanese machines are standard metric bearings available at any bearing sales place. Even in Christchurch NZ I could go to at least 4 places and get suitable bearings. Get good brand name bearings, and they’ll last a life time. Ian S C

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Another quite good little book is Stan Brays’ “Introducing The LATHE. Ian S C

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Dear John,

 

You wrote:

 

If only someone could only get organised a web site, where the sorts of new machines that we encounter could be impartially reviewed. That would go a long way to sorting this confusion out. A bit like the magazine Which, but for the model engineer.

 

If you are willing to provide the capital for what you obviously believe in, as I am retired and have a large workshop and time on my hands I would be glad to oblige and review a wide range of machines as you suggest.  I also have the Software Engineering expertise to set up the site, Just send the cheque..  

 

T

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi David,

 

Sorry, should I have sent that last message by email

T

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Heh Terry,

 

You retired young, judging by your photograph

K

Edited By KWIL on 29/11/2010 23:06:18

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