when is a precision vice not a precision vice>?

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

I stand by my previous comment, that it depends who is using the vice and what for. There simply isn't a standard answer.

I have 5 milling vices ranging from the cheap modified drill stand (a la Harold Hall, see his website) To the top of the range Abwood milling vice, amongst the last made by them. I then have a Vertex K4 and a couple of variable angle vices.

Which do I use most? Well it is the cheapo Harold Hall, modified vice. Which do I use least? Well the top of the range Abwood. The others fall in between. Perhaps not the expected answer!

Quite often I use no vice at all, relying on clamping to the table. The original question is really a waste of time unless the OP specifies his mill and the size and type of work he is doing. If you are a semi professional, then the best vices are the answer (Kurt, Abwood etc) for the average model engineer a cheaper alternative is required. Providing you fettle the cheapie to satisfy your needs, then all is well. The act of using your mill to fettle such a cheapie is a valuable milling exercise in itself.

Andrew.

[michael mParticipant @michaelm]

Andrew, I'm aware of the distinction between advice and an opinion hence my comment that advice is generally subjective. But you are correct of course in that subjective/personal advice =opinion. Unqualified advice is only possible, as you state, with a complete analysis of every vice available and as per SOD's post a full understanding of the users requirements and machinery. Hence the futility of such questions as "what is the best lathe" appearing occasionally. Clearly from your postings your work tends to be large, mine's further down the scale so a good example of differing requirements.

Any way, the object of this post is not to get into semantics, plenty of that already, but to point out another option that I'd overlooked despite owning one. "Precision vice no.2" from Arc Eurotrade. I have a small hand shaper for which I required a low profile vice and have been more than pleased with that purchase. It has the benefit of no jaw lift and a large capacity. Available in different sizes and reasonably priced. Again a company with exemplary customer service.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Hello Michael,

I had forgotten that I had a small vice from Arc. I used it on the vertical slide for milling in the lathe. This, before I got a mill. You are quite correct. The vices come in 3 different sizes if I remember correctly. They are good units and don't cost the earth. I would recommend them as good quality vices without a large price tag.

Andrew.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Well the vice that I bought when I first got my X3 was a Vertex K4 which has also had a couple of mentions above. It came with the swivel base but that has only been used once in 11yrs though I do sometimes mount the vice on my 6" rotary table which allows a bit of angled or curved work.

I also bought the smallest type 2 vice from ARC a couple of years ago which is handy for small work or holding at an angle in the larger vice.

As part of what Ketan sent me for the Beginners Milling series I got 3 more machine vices and as well as using them for the article have also used them for my own work where they offered an advantage over the K4 eg deeper jaws in the case of a 90mm type 2 and larger opening in the case of the two Versatile vices. They were accurate enough for my needs just like the K4 has been.

J

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I go away for a few days, and a riot breaks out in the playpen!

Please continue to play nicely or I will be applying corrective measures.

An if anyone doesn't like posts or the way a thread is going, use the report post button – posting 'this thread should be locked' or laying into people is just contributing to the discord.

Finally, the whole problem with this thread is that no-one has worked out that the original question was rhetorical and a literal response was never needed nor expected.

Neil

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 19/08/2018 15:08:08:

I go away for a few days, and a riot breaks out in the playpen!

Please continue to play nicely or I will be applying corrective measures.

An if anyone doesn't like posts or the way a thread is going, use the report post button – posting 'this thread should be locked' or laying into people is just contributing to the discord.

Finally, the whole problem with this thread is that no-one has worked out that the original question was rhetorical and a literal response was never needed nor expected.

Neil

The problem is that the question makes no sense.

Martin.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 19/08/2018 15:08:08:

Finally, the whole problem with this thread is that no-one has worked out that the original question was rhetorical and a literal response was never needed nor expected.

Neil

Some useful "reviews", or at least pointers, can be gleaned nonetheless from amidst the discord by people like me who frequently need them. Today's post with phots by Dave was particularly well timed and useful.

Thanks to your recommendation also a while back, Neil, I now have a decent bench drill, which is turning out to be exactly what I needed. Now I just need to decide on the right machine vice – right for me, that is – which is why I came here today. Since I have the same drill as you, Neil, I'd be grateful to know what machine vice you use, or usually use, on your drill, assuming you do.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by blowlamp on 19/08/2018 15:28:37:

The problem is that the question makes no sense.

Martin.

The thread title is in form a question but in function a statement, hence Neil's comment. The same meaning could have been conveyed by saying "not all so-called precision vices are actually very precise". Whether this would have produced less controversy is debatable.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 19/08/2018 15:58:10:

Posted by blowlamp on 19/08/2018 15:28:37:

The problem is that the question makes no sense.

Martin.

The thread title is in form a question but in function a statement, hence Neil's comment. The same meaning could have been conveyed by saying "not all so-called precision vices are actually very precise". Whether this would have produced less controversy is debatable.

All vices will have some level of precision.

When is a question not a question?

[DanielParticipant @daniel]

[DanielParticipant @daniel]

Lordy, Lordy, Lordy …..

Get off the keyboard, and into your workshops.

Quite unbelievable, this thread

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 19/08/2018 15:08:08:

I go away for a few days, and a riot breaks out in the playpen!

Please continue to play nicely or I will be applying corrective measures.

Just as well that I deleted anther thread before you saw that

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 19/08/2018 15:45:03:

Thanks to your recommendation also a while back, Neil, I now have a decent bench drill, which is turning out to be exactly what I needed. Now I just need to decide on the right machine vice – right for me, that is – which is why I came here today. Since I have the same drill as you, Neil, I'd be grateful to know what machine vice you use, or usually use, on your drill, assuming you do.

 

Thanks Bill, I think I have at least one milling or drilling vice from each of many suppliers Warco, Chester, Arc, Proops, Machine Mart and Chronos of various sizes and specs. My current vice for the drill press is the 100mm Axminster Engineer Series one. It's definitely NOT suitable for smaller/less robust drill presses as it weighs a ton!

The only downside is I need to sort some M14(!) fixings to match both vice and drill press table.

Neil

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 19/08/2018 17:37:14

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I think the word precision alone in a statement has a certain amount of ambiguity, as precision is allowed a tolerance just as anything else has. e. g. precision is not the same as high precision. When deciding on anything, you need to know all the factors that you expect of it, so the precision description alone, does not lead it to be of a high accuracy. To claim that something is not fit for purpose, you need to have written documentation of all it's parameters, word of mouth does not cut it.

Regards Nick.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Precision, is probably, like beauty, in the eye of the beholder, or determined by your needs, and the equipment available.

James Watt would not have believed that it was possible to produce, consistently, cylinders and pistons to within 0.001"

Maudslay's invention of the Micrometer started us down the path of greater precision.

Aiming an arrow at a target, calls for precision of the order of an inch (25mm) or so to be within the Gold or whatever band you seek to hit. A darts player has to be more precise in order to place a dart within a band barely 3/8 inch (10mm) wide, to score a double or a triple.

If you are making vehicle engines the cylinder bores need to be within a 0.001" (0.0254mm) tolerance of nominal size.

If you are making the fuel injection equipment for that engine, the plunger and barrels, or Injector needles and Nozzle bodies will be sized to within a micron or two, and then each lapped to its partner.

If you are thinking of the track separation within an Integrated circuit, think in terms of a micron, or maybe now, of less.

Similarly with machine vices; to drill clearance holes for nuts and bolts, if it holds the work within 1mm, it will probably suffice. If you are looking to ream a cylinder, to match a plunger, or to position dowel holes, then you need a much better piece of equipment, i.e. of greater precision.

Which is why a cheap vice will have rattling good fits, and a consistently accurate one will be expensive.

A Box Brownie could never do what a Leica 111f did in terms of capability or resolution, but what would you expect for £2/10/0 (£2.50) against £168?

Howard

[Ian Skeldon 2Participant @ianskeldon2]

Some useful feedback on what vices other people are using, where they bought them from and how they have found them to operate, very helpful for myself and hopefully anyone else thinking of buying a vice within the constraints I mentioned.

Thank you everyone,

Ian

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 19/08/2018 17:36:48:

My current vice for the drill press is the 100mm Axminster Engineer Series one. It's definitely NOT suitable for smaller/less robust drill presses as it weighs a ton!

The only downside is I need to sort some M14(!) fixings to match both vice and drill press table.

 

Thanks for the information, Neil.

Yes, M14 fasteners will be a little difficult to come by, I imagine. Even M12 can be hard to source in some things, as I found recently when I wanted some M12 Tee nuts to make a new work bench with adjustable feet.

Edited By Bill Phinn on 19/08/2018 20:08:49

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I think I would go with M12 and a couple of custom made thick washers or flange nuts, even on the Axi website they show the biggest one with M12 fixings though the flanged nuts do look a bit small for the slots.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, M14 bolts are available **LINK** Most places that sell bolts to industry should be able to supply them.

Regards Nick.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

M12 will do if it has a decent flange, that's what I have at the moment – using washers rather than flanges – but the fit in the slots is sloppy and the washers can fall into the slots.

For the smaller press I made a couple of top hat washers for a smaller screw with a wing nut underneath for rapid movements, I'll probably make something similar using M10 or 12 screws.

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