Warco WM250 Lathe and Warco WM18 Milling machine (Advice please)

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 23/04/2018 15:39:09:

It's possible that undoing the bolts to adjust the head right-left has disturbed the front-back setting. Tightening the bolts unevenly can disturb the tram and there's a bit of a knack to nipping them both up correctly.

Don't see how adjusting the swivel of the head to get it square to the table would have affected the nod. If he had shimmed the column to adjust sideways tram then yes that could have affected nod but he has not touched the column bolts.

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

On the wm18 there is two bolts one through the centre then a second one below if I had done the bottom one up way to tight it could have pulled the head back which in fact would relate to the error I’m seeing front high back low let’s hope so though shall check later when wife gets home .

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Just checked my WM18 and it's currently off 0.16mm over 180mm front to back (roughly 6 thou over 7 inches) . That's notmuch if you convert it to an angle – a slope of 1 in 1125, or 0.09%. I haven't bothered to correct it because I always do long cuts right to left. Might worry me more if I was flattening largish areas with a big radius fly-cutter.

Glad I did the test because it's drifted off right-left as well, about 0.05mm over 180mm. Can't remember when I last adjusted it, could have been a year ago.

Dave

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

When I set a engineers square on table and raised the z axis using the hand wheel I got about 0.002″ over 80mm or so.

This makes me think the nod is in the head where it connects to the z axis burr or dirt or when I did the bolts up when I did the tilt?.

Edit

Oh so about the same as me then.

Edited By STK2008 on 23/04/2018 17:40:39

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

OK update lol think I found the issue and it’s a fault for sure.

If 8 set my engineers square on the table and a verdict in the er32 chuck and use the z axis hand wheel to move the whole head up and down its great but here is the problem

If I use same setup but this time use the large handle on the side (basically like a pillar drill) so the quill (spelling?.) Is sliding up and down the engineers square I get a huge amount about 0.020″ plus so either the hole was bored out of the head on the pee or some other issue is causing the problem.

If I extend the quill full towards table my issue with the nod actually improves a bit odd ah?.

So yeah will need to ring warco hopefully they can supply a new head assembly?.

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

I could actually show this (will test it tomorrow)

If I set up a piece of metal and instert a drill bit and drill it rather deep I should end up with an elongated hole at the top of the part due to the drill bit going in on the skew.

I should also not see it on the sides as the head is trammed it should match up to back to front which was the reason I was getting so much variation when testing it.

I Think Warco for the first 6 months sends some one out to fit parts is this correct?.

Thanks again in advance.

P.S

I want to get the mill running right ASAP as Warco will be sending out my other toy soon a lathe then the fun begins making sure thats fit for purpose .

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

Forgot to say

I need to use the z axis hand wheel and lower the whole head with the drill bit this will create an elongated hole due to the spindle bearing not being correctly seated.

Edited By STK2008 on 23/04/2018 21:29:15

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

If the edit button disappears try logging out then back in again.

[Gas_mantle.Participant @gas_mantle]

Seeing if it drills an elongated hole isn't an accurate way of determining where the problem is (if it exists at all)

Have you tried milling metal with it and measuring the results ? Like I say take a step back and see how it performs before you start telling Warco the head is at fault or adding shims etc.

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

I understand .

I am pretty sure some thing is a miss though.

Using the quill and extending it that should not be running out 0.020″+ the z axis head support can’t be out other wise that would have shown when I did the engineers square and verdict test moving the head up and down that would show the support rail is out.

But that was only 0.002″.

It could still be the head has an unwanted nod due to a burr etc.
Or it could be the quill and spindle is not correctly fitted in the bearings or the head was not bored out completely in line so the bearing are not aligned correctly.

I’m no expert I don’t pretend to be that’s for sure I hope I’m wrong but some thing is a miss some where.

I understand no one here owes me any thing but if any one lives in Oxford UK and has the urge to have a look I would truly appriciate it.

Any way thanks again all

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

I'm at risk here of the dilemma attributed to Abe Lincoln: "…sometimes it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak up and remove all doubt…"

But here goes anyway:-

Warco's blurb for the WM18 says there's a spring plunger to lock the head to vertical – parallel to the column. I've seen similar on Bridgeports and other vertical mills.

Is that engaged, and if so does the quill still show out of parallel?

If it does, there's a problem with the head.

If it doesn't, column and table aren't square to each other for whatever reason.

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

Hi

Yeah there is a plunger on the head on the right that is fully in.

I assume this is to lock it some what into position though it’s not accurate and I would not expect it to be.

I’m going in the garage soon might do some videos of this issue or photos.

Shame every thing else seems to check out great.

Shall be getting the lathe soon to so would like this sorted before that turns up other wise if warco insist which I hope they don’t that they want to replace the whole machine then we won’t get it out of the workshop once that lathe in in place lol.

Edited By STK2008 on 24/04/2018 10:13:42

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

Hi all I am back again 😛

 

The first video shows back to front which is the direction I cant tram and as you can see its moveing a lot when I use the quill handle so either the spindle is on the skew or the head is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wAl3AROOEI

 

The second video shows left to right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWkAUEV0OK0

 

Thanks in advance

 

Edited By STK2008 on 24/04/2018 11:09:43

Edited By STK2008 on 24/04/2018 11:10:08

Edited By STK2008 on 24/04/2018 11:10:37

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Something more than meets the eye here.

If the fore-and-aft skew's as bad as it appears in the first vid, it's almost enough to unseat the ball on the clock finger in the second from the blade of the square, which is only going to be about 40 – 60 thou wide. Yet in the second video the ball seems to be in a similar position across the blade at the bottom of the stroke as at the top.

Maybe it's just my eyes.

You say you wouldn't expect the spring plunger to be accurate. I would. If it's fit for purpose it should set the quill square in the table's longitude within the normal accuracy of the machine tool. I can't remember the exact check I did when I was running a Bridgeport for pay all those years ago, but I couldn't fault the taper pin it had for squareness.

Edited By Mick B1 on 24/04/2018 11:26:23

Edited By Mick B1 on 24/04/2018 11:27:04

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

When I did the tests I pointed the camera at what handle I was going to move before I did so.

 

In the second video at the start I moved the whole head up using the Z axis handle wheel. then I used the quill lever which is then where you see a larger movement then at the end I go back to the Z axis hand wheel again.

 

On the first video I used the Z axis hand wheel and then I use the quill lever thats when it moved like 0.40mm or more.

 

The quill etc is not correct in the head it cant be to move that much when I use the quill lever so basicaly its not just extending the quill out of the head its also moveing over due to it being on the pee .

 

this is why I cant tram back to front because if I set zero at the front of the machine and then move it to the back because the quill is wrong its basically lifting up off the table a little.

 

It was realy hard to hold the phone steady and focus on the verdict etc lol.

 

As said if any one is in Oxford,UK and would be willing to lend an extra pair of eyes that would realy be appriciated .

 

Trying to think of another test that would show any fault up I am pretty sure it has to be the quill in the head or the head is not bolted to the z axis up right

 

Thanks again all.

Edited By STK2008 on 24/04/2018 11:49:07

[Gas_mantle.Participant @gas_mantle]

I'm not convinced your measuring method is as accurate as you think it is.

Personally I'd cut some metal and check the results, before ringing Warco.

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

I understand what your saying I realy do.

 

But I moved the whole Z axis up first and had no more than 0.002" or 0.05mm this shows the square is ummm sqaure lol.

As soon as I moved the quill out it was about 0.015" or 0.40mm.

the quill cant be extending from the head correclty or the head is mounted to the Z axis wrong?.

 

Thanks again to all for you suggestions etc and patience :P.

 

If I had a fly cutter and faced a metal block If I then ran a verdict across the top I should get a lower reading at the back of said block but I dont have a flycutter

Edited By STK2008 on 24/04/2018 11:53:56

Edited By STK2008 on 24/04/2018 11:55:25

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Yes, I could see and understand what you were doing, and the procedure ought to make sense.

What does puzzle me is why the finger seems to remain centred on the edge of the square blade in the second vid, when the first seems to show enough fore-and-aft skew to take it way out of centre – if not off the blade completely – in the second test.

[Gas_mantle.Participant @gas_mantle]

My guess is the set square method looks to be sound but in reality it is using a thin flexible surface to read from, how well it is clamped down etc could all introduce error.

Have you tried the same test at either end of the table ? Are the results consistent ?

I could be wrong but it seems an unreliable way of taking a reading.

[John RuddParticipant @johnrudd16576]

STK2008,

You really need to repeat the exact tests as carried out either by the factory or by Warco, in order to determine the "true" figures represented on the test report.

Using your method isnt a really fair way imho…..so I'd suggest contacting Warco and ask what method / how they determine the accuracy…….

In terms of using the machine, ordinarily you would use the quill for drilling holes, the Z axis being used for milling…as I was taught…and as I use my machine ( VMC/Chester 626 )

As G-M suggests, go cut some swarf and get a feel for the machine and then see how you feel about it….

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

I have done another test using the machines Z axis as a ref

**LINK**

[Cabinet EnforcerParticipant @cabinetenforcer]

Posted by STK2008 on 24/04/2018 12:57:26:

I have done another test using the machines Z axis as a ref

No you haven't, you aren't measuring anything meaningful there, there is more than 1 axis of freedom.

You said you had trammed the head, but video 2 above clearly shows it is miles out. Step away from the spanners before you make it worse, go and have a cuppa, then engage the brain.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

I agree with gas_mantle, the tests themselves are suspect. (Close tolerance testing is rather difficult!)

Have a look at this photo. Does it show that my table isn't flat, or does it show that one or both of my set-squares are untrustworthy in the sideways direction? (This might chime with MickB1's comment).

The answer is that my set-squares are only trustworthy in one plane. The one marked 'Conforms to BS939' is particularly bad. Sticking a DTI on the flat-side and running the quill up and down produces errors consistent with the blade leaning and flexing.

The test as performed by STK008 is better – he runs the DTI up and down the safe edge of his set-square, reducing the effect of a bent blade (if he has one), and eliminating any tendency to flex. But there's another issue: when you ramp the quill up and down, there is nothing to stop the quill rotating slightly. Trouble is that a tiny circular movement appears as a big error on the DTI. You can't tell if the error is due to the quill turning, or because it is misaligned in some way.

Next photo shows a slightly better set-up. The DTI is fixed and bears against a rod in the collet. This makes my quill look considerably better than when I tested it using STK008's set-square method.

A further improvement is gained when the measurement is taken with the spindle turning. It still bounces about but the effect tends to average out. There are still several sources of error; how straight is my test rod; are the collet and collet chuck in good condition; is the taper clean; why aren't I using the biggest diameter rod I can fit to the machine?

It's possible that STK008 has a faulty mill, I'm certainly not trying to prove otherwise. If it's wrong or you're unhappy, talk to Warco. But I agree with gas_mantle at this stage – I'd give the mill and yourself some practice cutting metal first.

Dave

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Send a copy/link of that last video to Warco and ask them if it's acceptable.

John, these small mills generally use the quill to put on a cut that is why it has the cheap digital reader on the quill.

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

Hi again

I’ve just checks that the tram left to right is good and it is over 20mm I get 0.002″.

Tramping back to front I get 0.006″ with no way to fix it as the head does not nod.

I have just places a verdict in the er32 collet and zeroed it on the bed in one corner and moved the bed from back to front I get no more than 0.001″ and left to right I get 0.002″ which is good seeing g as the bed a big .

So it’s not the table.

If I lock spindle from rotating then do test again seen in my last video and still get same results then does that show any thing?. I know what u mean about the collet rotating yes that would give a bad reading BRB gonna do that.

Edit

Yep that’s right it has a fine feed on quill so if I’m right and I extend quill further down with what I’m thinking is wrong it’s not gonna be very good.

Edited By STK2008 on 24/04/2018 13:36:09

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