Warco WM250 Lathe and Warco WM18 Milling machine (Advice please)

[Gas_mantle.Participant @gas_mantle]

Jason you've raised an interesting point here that I wasn't aware of. My machine is similar to the one the original poster is buying and when I bought it the advice was to buy ER25 collets (which I did). I just assumed that the MT2 spindle wouldn't take ER32 but having just looked at Arceuro it seems I can use ER32.

I'm looking at buying ER32 to use on my lathe so I wish I'd known from the onset that my mill will take ER32.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

ER25 will allow up to 16mm . ER32 will go to 20mm. OK, slightly more with reeeally expensive collets.

I would think ER25 will do for a while, until you buy larger cutters or wish to hold larger sizes of stock materials. The advantage of the larger set is that you would not need to change the holder for all the usual sizes. The advantage of the ER25 is that a smaller holder can come in useful at times (and they are cheaper).

I chose ER32, but it was a personal choice because I might wish to use it in my lathe.

Your eventual choice might be whether to buy a full set of ER32 collets or just the larger ones. Downside there is that of needing to change holders each time you don’t have a complete set….

So, stick with what you have or change your order before delivery is my advice. Probably be wrong, whichever way you go!

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

Being able to use them in my lathe at some point could be handy tbh.
Will ring monday and see what they say.

Thanks for input

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

How is every one this fine morning?

I was looking at Warco website a little more and they do suggest the ER25 collets for the WM250 and WM18 so I shall stick to that for now but thanks for pointing it out I am sure the machines would run ER32 collets as the motors in these are 1.1KW so not small things but maybe there playing it safe?.

as seen here this lists my lathe

http://www.warco.co.uk/lathe-collet-chucks/256-er-25-lathe-collet-chuck.html

But under the ER32 version it lists the bigger lathes

http://www.warco.co.uk/lathe-collet-chucks/255-er-32-lathe-collet-chuck.html

So shall just leave the order as is for now .

Thank in advacne

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The reason for listing 25 for the mill and 32 for the lathe is that you are unlikely to use much over 16mm cutters on the mill but on the lathe they are used for workholding so the larger size is an advantage.

The only real advantage of the smaller size on the mill is that the nut is a bit smaller so you can sometimes get in closer when doing small items though I have not found using 32 on my similar size X3 to be a problem.

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

they dont list the ER32 for my lathe they recomend the ER25 according to this link

http://www.warco.co.uk/lathe-collet-chucks/256-er-25-lathe-collet-chuck.html

But yep I understand what ya saying though and makes total sense but for now I shall just stick to me order and have a play with it then see how it goes .

 

I have spent enough as it is LOL the wife will kill me 😛

 

EDIT

about leveling the machines would I get away with a normal bubble for leveling the stands,bedways on lathe etc or do I need some thing a bit more accurate?

 

Thanks

Edited By STK2008 on 08/04/2018 11:59:37

Edited By STK2008 on 08/04/2018 12:21:02

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by STK2008 on 08/04/2018 11:58:10:

about leveling the machines would I get away with a normal bubble for leveling the stands,bedways on lathe etc or do I need some thing a bit more accurate?

Mine is just resting on top of the workbench that Dad built over 50 years ago. It isn't bolted down, because I need to be able to move it to get in the cupboard next to it.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

You don't need a level at all. When you bolt the lathe to the bench, make sure there are no gaps between lathe and bench so bed is not pulled out of shape when you tighten the bolts. Put metal shim in any gaps before tightening the bolts. Then turn a test piece of metal about 1" diameter and four inches long with no tailstock support. If it turns tapered under a light cut, adjust shimming under the tailstock end bed mounting bolts to suit.

In fact, if you are using coolant, its a good idea to set the benchtop and lathe at a slight angle toward whichever corner of the tray the coolant drain is at. Bubble level is plenty good enough for that. Or you can just do it by watching where the suds go as you shim the bench feet on the floor.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Some machines are surprisingly bendy and levelling is the best place to start to eliminate twist in the bed. Agree there's no need to level this particular kit. Not critical as long as it's reasonably upright.

What caused me grief was discovering my garage floor isn't flat. It has some shallow hills and dales. I plonked the stand down such that it rocked slightly on an imperfection. It wasn't obvious that there was a problem until I noticed patterns in the finish at certain speeds. Bouncing a torch beam off the bed while the lathe was running showed that it was vibrating quite badly at various RPM, but not all. The cause was the stand not sitting properly flat on the floor. I bodged a fix by putting a pad made of roofing felt under the stand. It's squishy enough to take up most of the difference. Not perfect, I ought to put a skim down, but it's not been worth the extra effort.

Dave

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

Yeah the floor on my garage is not flat as well.

It has a rough texture and some high and low spots hmmmm might see what I can do about that before items turn up.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

I put mine on a sheet of rubber matting bought at a local DIY shop. Doesn't rock, good enough far as I want to tell for now. If I need to turn something parallel within tenths over more than 6 inches I might look at it again.

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

ER 25 should be more than adequate, and the collets work out cheaper, I have a Champion 20 mill and a Warco BV20 lathe. For the lathe I have the adaptor for the ER 25 that Warco sold for that lathe size, for the mill I bought the no2 Morse adaptor, quite happy with Er 25 on both, we always desire more and bigger but we have to be mindful of our finances.

Dave W

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

Thanks

Yeah I am going to stick to the ER25 for now but thanks to those who suggested the ER32 collets.

I will just have to see how I get on for now as I said £££ LOL.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by STK2008 on 08/04/2018 19:16:11:.

…

Yeah I am going to stick to the ER25 for now but thanks to those who suggested the ER32 collets.

…

Really good how this forum keeps me educated! When I bought a mill I got ER32 simply because it covers a wider gripping range:

• ER32 metric – 3mm to 20mm
• ER25 metric – 2mm to 16mm

Now I find Warco recommend ER25 – why? Bit of digging reveals that ER25 has mild advantages making it slightly more suitable for beginners and perhaps for general work too.

I was surprised to find in another recent thread that the recommended tightening torque for ER32 is a whopping 135NM, (100ftlb / 14kgm ) That's a good deal more than I apply with a short C-wrench, requiring a good heave on a 450mm/18" torque wrench. ( I admit to being a bit weedy.)

One advantage of ER25 is it requires less tightening force, about 100Nm. I guess I tighten ER25 about the same as I tighten ER32, so ER25 is proportionally less loose in amateur hands if you see what I mean.

Also, as hobbyists, I guess many of us tend towards smaller cutters rather than big ones. A 2mm collet is useful. At the other end of the scale although I use a 20mm HSS cutter on my mill fairly often, my most used size is a 10mm carbide. As ER25 chucks are rather cheaper too, might well have been a better buy when I started. The good news is the pros and cons seem marginal; buying one rather than the other is unlikely to be a disaster. (Unless you really must use 18 or 20mm cutters!) Or have I missed something?

Bit of trivia: in passing I discovered another reason why professional grade collets are so expensive. They're rated for 24000rpm! Which led to a machine specification new to me – it's Balance Grade. Machine tools should be rated at G2.5 (ie a vibration velocity of 2.5mm per second) G2.5 is small, but not good enough for the best machines some of which are rated for G1.0 or even G0.4 I guess balance is far more critical on high-speed CNC machines than it is on my lathe chugging round at about 1200rpm. Does anyone own a machine with a known Balance Grade? if so I guess it's something posh and not hobby kit.

Dave

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I was talking with ketan a while back and he mentioned the need for balanced nuts not just collets once you start to get into the very high speeds.

The only thing you missed is that if like Gas Mantle you later decide you want a set of collets and chuck for the lathe it will work out more expensive to buy the set of 25 and then a second set of 32 or 40 collets to get the best workholding capacity.

[Gas_mantle.Participant @gas_mantle]

STK2008, I'd think ahead a bit before you jump into buying an ER25 set for your mill.

The point was making that ER32 may be a better bet seems to have been misunderstood although Jason has now made the same point.

In my case I bought ER25 when I bought my mill as that was the advice given and I (wrongly) assumed that ER32 wouldn't fit. That was fine till we fast forward a year and I now want collets for my lathe but it turns out my lathe is suited to ER32.

It means I will end up having ER25 and ER32 when just ER32 would have done.

Admittedly ER25 may occasionally have advantages over ER32 in my mill but if I was aware at the time I'd have bought ER32 then only bought ER25 if there was a specific need for them.

Have look at what size the lathe will take and it may save in the long run if you buy one set for both machines.

 

Edited By Gas_mantle. on 09/04/2018 17:05:48

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Lets chuck a spanner into the works (metaphorically speaking)……..

I have loads of 1"/25 mm shank milling cutters (due to my unfortunate habit of buying too many job lots of assorted milling cutters from eBay), so I am running ER40 collets in my WM18

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

LOL I thought you lot was meant to help on here and not make my life harder LOL :P.

 

Now I am realy thinking on ringing tomorrow and just getting the ER32 as it does make sense tbh damn you all :P.

David Standing

Shhhhhh dont make it even harder for me :P.

On another note how do you find your WM18? I assume your happy with it?.

What was the accuracy like when you got it eg

Runout

Bed level etc etc etc?.

I dont mind tweaking a little but dont want to get into scraping and all that.

 

Thanks

Edit

So I may get them to change the ER25 to this instead

http://www.warco.co.uk/milling-collet-chucks/303204-er-32-collet-set-r8-taper.html

 

Edited By STK2008 on 09/04/2018 19:14:32

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Dunno if it's occurred to you or not so I'll mention it.

You've ordered a mill and lathes with stands and various other goodies that will arrive together, hurrah! A man, probably with only a hand pallet mover, will move two large plywood boxes from the lorry on to your drive. Perhaps more than one box on each pallet, all strapped together with steel bands, and shrink-wrapped in plastic. My chap was happy to put them in my garage. Not going to be an issue in your case, but imagine what would happen if your workshop was a shed at the end of a muddy garden accessed via steps up and down from a cellar. A bog-standard delivery man is unlikely to help with that! A few people have reported stuff being delivered by grumpy gits who leave everything dumped on the pavement for you to sort out: not the usual experience thank goodness.

Here's the issue; the boxes alone will pretty much fill the space available in your garage. They're bigger than the lathe, mill and stands unpacked, and the bits take up considerably more floor space than when assembled. You will also have an engine crane to accommodate. Expect to have a temporary space crisis.

Unpacking and assembling will take time, especially if it's your first go and you don't have an assistant. If the stuff arrives late in the day, or you happen to be at work when it comes, you might find yourself pushed for both time and space. I unpacked on my drive, partly sheltered by my up and over garage door, just as well because it rained.

My lathe and mill were bought at different times. Neither was particularly difficult to deal with but I was tired by the time I'd finished each. Having to install two machines would have exhausted me without a break. (I'm an unfit retired office worker on the weedy side. A fit youngster would probably do the same without blinking. On the plus side I don't flap and dither in a crisis, on the downside I was inexperienced. Pays to be realistic about your limitations, if any!)

Anyway, not doom and gloom, but I suggest it's worth planning ahead, preparing and having a quick think about worst-case scenarios, particularly as you're tight for space:

• Where do you want them to put the boxes and in what order? My mill was straightforward because my garage was half empty and it arrived at 9am in good weather. The lathe arrived late in the afternoon: I had only just enough space to store it boxed in the garage overnight and unpacked it on the drive the following day. The lathe was OK, I got quite wet. If you mill is going to be set up at the rear of your workshop, it's probably best to position the box in front of the lathe.
• How you will see what you're doing in the event that you have to unpack after dark?
• What will you if it rains?
• Is it safe to leave boxes under a plastic sheet overnight on your drive, or will they attract crimbos?
• Will you have time to do unpack and setup alone if you can't get an assistant?
• Check you have room for the crane. The problem with mine is the legs splay widely and it won't turn in a tight space. Don't forget you need a lifting strap or strong rope as well.

I hope that doesn't sound too scary. As jobs go it's all perfectly do-able, but lack of space and small things can really slow you down. That can become stressful if you are short of time or gremlins strike. I have no doubt that you'll get it sorted – everyone else has!

Dave

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

Hi

Love the name LOL.

Realy good points I understand its going to be tight and a pain to move lucky for me I have booked in a few of my friends and my bro all of them are built pretty hefty LOL unlike me I realy am built like a twig I am 99% bone and about 1% muscle.

I shall be hireing an engine crane and I have ordered a few 1ton straps

x2 1 meter

x2 2 meter and a friend lent me a 3 meter strap so I should be able to do some thing with them .

Also to those saying about ER32 well I rang them this morning and they have now changed the ER25 set to the ER32 set at an extra cost of £35 so not a huge difference tbh with ya and as said get them now instead of later and I can now use them on the lathe when I get an ER backplate for the lathe.

I never harrased them for an update on delivery though I wanted to but I thought lets just leave them to it .

Any way thanks all and I shall keep u all updated

[LimpetParticipant @limpet]

Stk. Just to put your mind at rest I received my WM16b from Warco about a week ago, delivered by a very nice man who put as close to the workshop as he could get with the pallet truck. Although they were still waiting for delivery of some of the items purchased on their open day, (still another two weeks to wait). I had to split the mill in half to manhandle (on my own) into the workshop (too many steps for cranes). Just finished cleaning and reassembling now read to cut metal.

When I bought my Chester DB8 a few years ago it was all they could do to leave it on the pavement.

Keep patient

Lionel

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

Thanks for replying

Who do they actually use to deliver there stuff if you dont pay extra for them to do it? though I did think about getting a quote from Warco but I could imagine it would not be cheap tbh.

Thanks

[MeunierParticipant @meunier]

I ordered a WM18 from Warco last year and they used Kuehne & Nagel to deliver (most of the way) then a local delivery firm for the last rural section. They charged what I thought was a reasonable GBP132 to S.W France roughly between Bordeaux and Toulouse. That was for WM18-stand-vice-lube-cutting oil etc.
All arrived in good order. I thought that wasn't too bad when even a small package from Arc costs GBP15.50p and from M-DRO GBP9 via Royal Mail International.
DaveD

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

Hi

I live in the UK so luckely I get free delivery on every thing I have just ordered which is a good job as i have ordered a Lathe and stand,Mill and stand plus loads of other bits which I could imagine costing a fair bit in delivery tbh.

Thanks for replying

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

Little update

There sending out the Mill,stand and a few other bits this week hopefully.

So should get that next week gives me a chance to set that up and then when they get the stand in for the lathe they shall send that order out.

Kind of works out ok as setting both machines up in one day probably would have been a little to much LOL.

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