WARCO WM-250 lathe family and WM16 mill – 001

[Wolfgang Schulze-ZachauParticipant @wolfgangschulze-zachau24580]

Hello everyone here!

I have read this thread with a lot of interest. I am the owner of a 5 month old WM250VF with a milling attachment (my workshop is very small and there is no space for a separate milling machine). So far the lathe has done a very good job, after I went through some of the same exercises as most other posters here (tailstock alignment, back-plate facing off, etc.).

Last night I ran into some trouble, though. Whilst parting off a piece of 20mm MS, the lathe jammed completely. It just stopped, and I switched it off immediately. After removing the tool and checking that the headstock moved freely (which it does). I tried switching it back on and…NOTHING. The main switch kicks in (soft clunk sound) and the display comes alive, but the motor doesn't run and the dsiplay shows 0. Has anybody had this before? I have emailed Warco and am currently waiting for their reply, but just wanted to hear whether I just need to reset some switch somewhere or check for something obvious. Any pointers would be highly appreciated.

Wolfgang

[Christopher Taylor 1Participant @christophertaylor1]

Hi Wolfgang

I have a similar machine and it also stopped whilst I was parting off, can't remember if it all went dead but the problem was a 10amp fuse located between the forward/reverse switch and the on/off switches – small plastic fuse holder with a cross head that just screws out. Purchased a pack of similar fuses from Maplin for £3 – problem solved.

Hope this heps

Christopher

[Wolfgang Schulze-ZachauParticipant @wolfgangschulze-zachau24580]

Hi Christopher,

that was spot on! I thought this was the mains fuse, and since the display came on, I didn't even check it. Many thanks for the pointer, saved me a lot of worries.

Wolfgang

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

Hi Wolfgang

I have the WM250V-F lathe & had this problem initially also, it was the fuse too, take it easy with your depth of cuts etc. also check the fuse that is on the back of the electric panel at the back of the lathe, you won't see it from the front but that can blow too.

George

[Wolfgang Schulze-ZachauParticipant @wolfgangschulze-zachau24580]

Hi George,

thanks for the additional tip, I'll keep it in mind. I don't think my cuts are too deep. On mild steel I take about 0.4mm in diameter, which is in essence a 0.2mm cut. When the tool first hits the piece, I can hear the engine straining a little, but after that it goes along with no problem.

I think what happened here was that a piece swarf somehow got caught between the parting blade and the work piece and that jammed the whole thing.

Wolfgang

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

Hi Wolfgang

It's a common problem when parting off; we've all done it, in the early days with the resultant broken blade, . I have built a rear tool post from a Hemmingway kit (usual disclaimer) which I can say much improves the parting off experience (for large MS items) as the cuttings drop down instead of building up on top of the tip, plus the resultant cutting force is directed down onto the headstock bearings rather than trying to lift the bearings, remember to add plenty of coolant. I still use the front post method for small stuff, small MS, brass, aluminium, bored out items etc. I have since conquered my initial fear of parting off, which many of us have had for years (don't say you haven't !) & can now part off under power without trepidation. Look in my album for 'Rear tool post' build pics, you can see a couple of thick washers I made using the rear tool post .. Happy machining.

George.

[Wolfgang Schulze-ZachauParticipant @wolfgangschulze-zachau24580]

Hi George,

I can't say I have a real fear of parting off. Never had one, really. I learned most of my skills as a teenager and then didn't use most of them for the next 35 years, but a lot is still there somewhere in the head, and I never had a problem with parting off. It's more the annoyance over ruined work pieces and tools that gets me. The waste of time.

I have seen your pictures, and the rear toolpost is quite nice, but I am not sure I want to expend that energy. Maybe when I am through my first set of 10 fuses. When I find a little time, I'll post a few pics of my own mods.

Wolfgang

[Wolfgang Schulze-ZachauParticipant @wolfgangschulze-zachau24580]

Something I wanted to ask in general: I have bought myself a 10mm clamping kit, but then realized that it won't quite fit in the slots in the saddle of the WM250. These are somehow in between 8mm and 10mm slots, with the end result that while the 10mm nuts won't fit, the bolts supplied to hold the normal cross slide are actually too small and any tightening does damage the slots (well, at least on mine it does).

I am seriously considering widening the slots in the saddle to accept the 10mm nuts, but that would mean using another workshop since I can't get them done on my own machine.

Has anybody had this problem and if os, how have you solved it?

Edited By Wolfgang Schulze-Zachau on 21/05/2014 21:57:20

[Mark P.Participant @markp]

I made my own nuts to fit the slots.
Regards Mark P.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

If the slots are below 10mm then you would be better off with a 8mm clamping set. The upstanding part of my 10mm set is 11mm wide so most likely that it will be 9mm wide on an 8mm set which should be an ideal fit in yours.

I really woild not remachine the slots on teh cross slide, the existing ones are close enough to the edge as it is.

J

[Rik ShawParticipant @rikshaw]

Wolfgang – I am sure that YOUR workshop is capable of knocking up a few suitably sized "T" nuts as I did for my cross slide. Your solution of machining the slots sounds like using a sledge hammer to crack a nut!

Rik

[HowiParticipant @howi]

Re – parting off

I bought a parting off tool from one of the shows, pretty basic block of steel with a slot for the blade and a sticky out piece that goes in the tool holder. Just like you, parting off steel caused the usual jamming. My lathe is even smaller than yours and with less power ( I think power really is the key ), so decided to copy the design of my existing one but lower the bit that goes in the tool holder, thereby raising the now inverted blade to centre height.

Run the lathe in reverse and hey presto no more problems, I might just add I am a relative beginner but it only took a few hours to make.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I don't see how making new nuts is going to solve the problem, if Wolfgang says the top of the slot is less than 10mm then his studs won't fit let alone the nuts, thats why I suggested an 8mm set.

[Christopher Taylor 1Participant @christophertaylor1]

Hi Wolfgang

I have only found the need so far to clamp a bar at 90deg to the cross slide to facilitate setting the combination slide at various angles for screw cutting etc. and made up suitable studs as per the photo below, I started with 20mm round bar and cut a metric thread as metric nuts are easily purchased for little money.

[Richard MarksParticipant @richardmarks80868]

Gentlemen

Having owned a WM 250 for many years I am now getting a small problem, every time I switch the lathe on for the first time it throws the trip, not the one in the workshop but the one in the house which is 40 metres away, it then runs a bit rough for a few minutes and then seems to settle down and I have no more problems until the next day, It is not damp in the workshop and stays quite warm at night, I did think of condensation but the warco mill doesn't have the same problem, I would appreciate your thoughts.

[Wolfgang Schulze-ZachauParticipant @wolfgangschulze-zachau24580]

RE: slots and nuts

Yes, of course I can knock out a few nuts, that's not the issue here. The slots are actually just wide enough to fit the 10mm bolts, but they are not wide enough to accept the little sleeve on the top of the nuts. There are just a few tenths missing. The slots are also deep enough to accept the 10mm nuts, but again, the bottom isn't wide enough. That could easily be fixed by just reducing the nuts to the necessary size, which would only leave a widening of the neck (i.e. the top of the slots), because if I reduce these to the necessary size to fit, there won't be any material left and I would end up with some very odd looking T-nuts.

I am not in favour of buying an 8mm set as the slots are already too wide for the clamping screws that came with the cross slide. As mentioned, even minimal tightening has already damaged those very spots where they have to sit, and using an 8mm clamping kit would just aggravate the situation, and then I would end up having to buy another saddle top.

I'll probably give the "machine the nuts to fit" a shot and then we'll see.

RE: parting off:

I think I might go for the special tool holder and running the lathe in reverse. Building a back end tool hold looks like quite a bit more work to me.

RE: tripping fuses: can't really comment on that. However, you should note that most electronics use capacitors, and they have a definite lifespan, for commercial grades usually around 10 years (consumer grades around 5-8 years). Some types have hydrophilic components inside (i.e. they will suck up humidity in the air) and that strongly affects their function. Since capacitors are often used to dampen the effects of phase-cutting, it is quite possible that on first start-up (when the machine has to work a little harder to get going against stiff grease and oil) some of these effects make it through to your mains connection and trip the switch.

So, how old is the lathe? Maybe you should look into replacing the electronics.

[Richard MarksParticipant @richardmarks80868]

Wolfgang many thanks for your suggestion but I went down a different route, carbon brushes in motors leave dust in the motor which then causes tracking so I thought maybe that was the problem so out comes the motor and remove the brushes But Whats This! sticking brushes, clean everything up and make sure the brushes slide freely and refit, switch on and away she goes better than ever, I also had a similar problem on the WM16 whereby it would start but run a bit rough for a few minutes and then work ok so once again out with the brushes, and yes they were sticking so clean and check that they are free and reassemble, switch on problem solved, years ago tracking in motors wasn't a problem as we didn't have rcd trips then but you had to make sure the motor was earthed otherwise you got a sharp wake up call due to earth leakage and internal tracking. So the moral of this story is Check your Brushes!

[Mark P.Participant @markp]

I have had no end of brush problems with my WM250 and WM16, the mill seems to eat brushes 4 sets in 4 years and 2 sets in the lathe.They are only used mainly a weekends. I am seriously thinking of converting them both to VFD drive, has anyone done this their WM16?

Regards Mark P.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

A lot of brushes supplied with modern machinery do not seem to be the correct specification, quality. Ian S C

[Mike guitarParticipant @mikeguitar]

Hi I promise not to blag on about the Warco I just thought you may be interested in my progress. Im still considering the saddle stop mods but shelved for the time being and continued messing with the lathe. I decided to give the matter of thread cutting some attention, the Lathe had arrived with the change gears set for a very fine imperial thread so I decided it would be INTERESTING to have a go at moving gears around to give me say 8, 16 and 32 TPI, this didn't give me too many problems once I sorted out the best method of removing/fitting the key sleeves, slotted washers and shafts, I noted that unless the gear train is set up with the correct amount of clearance then the noise transmitted through the headstock is considerable, anyway ive got it sussed now and quite pleased with the result, incidentally the power cross feed works nicelyI

sorry for the long script hope you done mind too much

Edited By JasonB on 19/08/2014 15:36:47

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

To set the gears with about the right backlash, (None or negative WILL cause noise, and wear of gears and bearings) as you set the gears, roll a sheet of paper through the meshing point.

Ordinary writing paper is about 0.003" thick, and will give the right sort of backlash to work.

Excessive backlash will make the gear tooth contact points incorrect, and may result in extra noise.

Gears are usually designed to work with a small amount of backlash when located on the correct centre distance.

When the gears are loaded the backlash will be eliminated on the area of contact.

Howard

Edited By JasonB on 19/08/2014 15:35:47

[Mike guitarParticipant @mikeguitar]

Thanks Howard, after a few more hours fiddling I arrived at the correct setting, I tried different thickness of paper to get final position, I found the final setting of the banjo to be the most critical.

 

Edited By JasonB on 19/08/2014 15:36:20

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

You also need to watch the thickness of the washers between bango and gears, they vary slightly to give sid eclearance and do need to be swapped about the pegs depoending if you have small driving large or large driving small. Thin strip of copy paper works for me to gap the gears

Out of the factory the usual setup is to give the finest feed rates not a fine thread, if it was set for a fine thread then best to keep them in a fine feed ratio unless you are threading.

J

Edited By JasonB on 19/08/2014 15:35:22

[Rik ShawParticipant @rikshaw]

I agree with all above yet even after the paper treatment and with the banjo engaged the blessed thing still makes an ungodly row even though the train is plastered with thick grease! Disengage the banjo and silence – well, except for the loud hum when the motor runs.

Whilst on the subject of this model, I have found that since I bought the lathe last summer I have noticed that:

1. The on/off switch is a bit "iffy". I sometimes have to press up to three times to get the motor running.

2. WARCO publicity claimed that the machine has immense torque even at low speed. Well in the case of my machine that is certainly NOT the case. A .100" cut on ally at 200rpm can easily stall the motor and the problem is only resolved by increasing the speed. This by the way with the speed range knob set at LOW and the gear train set up for the slowest feed. Is this the reason that Warco now ship this lathe with a different sort of motor?

I am of course keeping a careful eye out and if things get any worse I will have to speak with Mr. Warco

Rik

 

Edited By JasonB on 19/08/2014 15:34:20

Edited By JasonB on 19/08/2014 15:34:43

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Is the on/off a mechanical latch or working a relay? I recently reworked a much battered mechanical one and if the new plastic equivalent works in the same way poor tolerance mouldings might be a problem. With a relay it might just need holding in to allow time to latch. We have a problem at work where the card entry door has a press button for exit. If you just tap the button it doesn't release so you look a proper Charlie as you come to a complete stop at the closed door.

Cutting depth also has to consider diameter and feed rate for the torque available. I suggest 0.1" is a very very heavy cut for an amateur lathe at any significant diameter, Sure it can be done on a 2HP back geared lathe but a hobbyist doesn't need that so can opt for low cost and convenience of a vari-speed if they wish. I think suppliers of this type of machine are justified in looking at say 30thou on a 4 in dia as quite good though I have no idea if it can do even that.

Edited By JasonB on 19/08/2014 15:33:54

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