UK Steel Supplier? 125 x 125 x 50 BMS

[MarkSParticipant @idriver]

Hi guys.
I have now got my mill and my lathe setup in my workshop (DB10VS) and my first project is to remove the compound slide to replace it with a solid block for holding the QCTP.
to that end i need a piece of steel 125 x 125 x 50mm.
I have tried a couple of the big online suppliers with depots across the uk without success. Can anyone recommend a potential source?
Thanks.

[Frank GorseParticipant @frankgorse]

M- machine metals, Darlington. Good service and delivery. The last time I needed a biggish square it was cheaper to order a slice off a round bar and cut it from that with the bonus that it was fcms,not often available in big squares. Whereabouts are you?

[Stuart Smith 5Participant @stuartsmith5]

You could try M-machine. They show 5” x 2” at £5.64 per inch.

Stuart

[MarkSParticipant @idriver]

Thanks Stuart, I will take a look and add them to my “Metal Suppliers” favourites.

[Frank Gorse]

On Frank Gorse Said:

M- machine metals, Darlington. Good service and delivery. The last time I needed a biggish square it was cheaper to order a slice off a round bar and cut it from that with the bonus that it was fcms,not often available in big squares. Whereabouts are you?

Thank’s Frank, I good tip. I’m still learning.

[Julie AnnParticipant @julieann]

Frank beat me to it; I second M-Machine. Personally I’d use cast iron (M-M do 125mm square GR17) or black steel as bright drawn may distort when machined.

Actually personally I wouldn’t use either. I use the top slide quite a bit and the only time I use a QCTP is on the hydraulic copy unit as that is what it came with. Early on I bought a Dickson QCTP and some holders but never fitted it to the lathe, and never will. My 4-way toolpost has a serrated disc underneath which means the toolpost can be repeatably set every 9 degrees. I wouldn’t want to lose that facility.

Julie

[Julie Ann]

On Julie Ann Said:

Frank beat me to it; I second M-Machine. Personally I’d use cast iron (M-M do 125mm square GR17) or black steel as bright drawn may distort when machined.

Actually personally I wouldn’t use either. I use the top slide quite a bit and the only time I use a QCTP is on the hydraulic copy unit as that is what it came with. Early on I bought a Dickson QCTP and some holders but never fitted it to the lathe, and never will. My 4-way toolpost has a serrated disc underneath which means the toolpost can be repeatably set every 9 degrees. I wouldn’t want to lose that facility.

Julie

Thank’s Juilie, I considered cast iron but for my first project I don’t want to be dealing with all the mass it creates or worry about ventilation/masks. Good point re using black over bright given the application.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

If you get it cutting right there should be very little dust, just short chips or sometimes longer curls.

Like Julie I use the topslide too much to want to change though unlike her I would not want to go back to a 4-way after having a QCTP and plenty of holders.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I’d not want to replace the top-slide without very good reason – and there are few of those.

Surely a QCTP will fit the top-slide? They are meant to, provided they are of appropriate size! If the bore through the block on yours is too large for the tool-post stud, fit it with bushes. If too small, see if you can fit a stud with thinner shank.

.

Though I am making adaptors for both 4-way and QC tool-holders to fit my Harrison L5’s boring-table that I have installed so I can bore some items between centres, and that on a lathe made for relatively easy swapping between a boring-table and the standard cross-slide + compound slide. *

If I want to turn short tapers, the table will at best accommodate only the top-slide “borrowed” from the Myford ML7 for the day. Not the standard one with its beefier construction and longer travel. So what I gain for a very few, special tasks I lose for most others.

 

If you really must – and I am not sure why you “must” – I second Julie’s suggestion of cast-iron. It is grubby to machine but unless you go at it bull-at-a-gate, not too inconveniently so. I’ve not found much problem with the dust, but I keep the speeds and feeds modest.

Do clean the machine thoroughly aftwerwards though. The graphite should not hurt but the cast-iron granules could act as a mutual abrasive to the slides and lead-screws.

 

I think some believe the compound slide is a weak point adding potential vibration or digging-in problems. Errr… no!  They may find it so if heavy-handed with their own lathes, and a dedicated back tool-post does ease parting and perhaps certain other tricky operations; but remember that generally each part of a machine-tool is designed within its whole system. So if set up thoughtfully the entirety can be used perfectly well within its own specifications – and that includes the full set of slides.

So why modify it for the sake of modifying it?

…… …..

* The lathe is designed thus. My workshop isn’t! I’d need either move the lathe forwards in an already over-cramped shed, or cut a hole through the wall and fit an exterior “serving-hatch”! Or as now, dismantle the handwheel assembly to let the slides come off the machine.

 

[Nigel Graham 2]

On Nigel Graham 2 Said:

I’d not want to replace the top-slide without very good reason – and there are few of those.

Surely a QCTP will fit the top-slide? They are meant to, provided they are of appropriate size! If the bore through the block on yours is too large for the tool-post stud, fit it with bushes. If too small, see if you can fit a stud with thinner shank.

.

Though I am making adaptors for both 4-way and QC tool-holders to fit my Harrison L5’s boring-table that I have installed so I can bore some items between centres, and that on a lathe made for relatively easy swapping between a boring-table and the standard cross-slide + compound slide. *

If I want to turn short tapers, the table will at best accommodate only the top-slide “borrowed” from the Myford ML7 for the day. Not the standard one with its beefier construction and longer travel. So what I gain for a very few, special tasks I lose for most others.

 

If you really must – and I am not sure why you “must” – I second Julie’s suggestion of cast-iron. It is grubby to machine but unless you go at it bull-at-a-gate, not too inconveniently so. I’ve not found much problem with the dust, but I keep the speeds and feeds modest.

Do clean the machine thoroughly aftwerwards though. The graphite should not hurt but the cast-iron granules could act as a mutual abrasive to the slides and lead-screws.

 

I think some believe the compound slide is a weak point adding potential vibration or digging-in problems. Errr… no!  They may find it so if heavy-handed with their own lathes, and a dedicated back tool-post does ease parting and perhaps certain other tricky operations; but remember that generally each part of a machine-tool is designed within its whole system. So if set up thoughtfully the entirety can be used perfectly well within its own specifications – and that includes the full set of slides.

So why modify it for the sake of modifying it?

…… …..

* The lathe is designed thus. My workshop isn’t! I’d need either move the lathe forwards in an already over-cramped shed, or cut a hole through the wall and fit an exterior “serving-hatch”! Or as now, dismantle the handwheel assembly to let the slides come off the machine.

 

It is irrelevant to my original question and I really didn’t feel the need to justify my reason’s, but I will briefly explain just a few.

The top slide on the DB10VS and all it’s other variants in other colours and names is not just a flat plate, it has a boss cast into the plate where the stud comes through. This severely restrict’s the choice of off the shelf QCTP’s that will fit.

Removing the top slide and replacing it with a solid block will eliminate not just the potential for flex in the top slide ways but also the swivel base it is mounted on, both of which are obviously manufactured down to a price.

On the very very few occasions I will use the top slide, it would take literals a couple of minutes to release the T-nut mountings to swap back to it.

Whilst this is not a case of “modify it for the sake of modifying it” as you put it. So what if it was?, my lathe, my choice, it is a hobby at the end of the day so much of what we all do is just “for the sake of it”.

 

[Martin Johnson 1Participant @martinjohnson1]

I would get it plasma/flame cut from plate.  Local fabrication shop may oblige.  Another vote for 4 way toolpost from me.

Martin

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The boss at the bottom of the stud is easily altered. I reduced the diameter of the one on my next size up 280 size lathe. Never had problems with the TS rotating  or flexing and the 280 is the same design.

Some people find that a carbide boring bar will open up the hole in teh QCTP which is another option.

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

The boss at the bottom of the stud is easily altered. I reduced the diameter of the one on my next size up 280 size lathe. Never had problems with the TS rotating  or flexing and the 280 is the same design.

Some people find that a carbide boring bar will open up the hole in teh QCTP which is another option.

Thanks Jason but neither are options for me. The lathe was delivered brand new on Wednesday so I want to keep all original parts as is for the warranty period just in case. Thus machining down the boats at this stage is not an option. The QCTP has a centre boss that screws in between the securing stud and the taper jaw release screw. Boring out the bottom of the QCTP would move the thread that boss screws into would destroy the QCTP.

Not my photo but it’s the same QCTP. The boss is seen bottom right.

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

In that case I would say live with the lathe for a couple of months and see how it performs.

If something is going to rotate the lost likely is the QCTP as it is just the one central fixing and a small contact area. The topslide has two fixings a lot further apart and a good area of contact. At least that is what moves on teh 280 if I do soemthing silly.

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

As we are off topic slightly I will add my thoughts. I purchase a Warco 290V some time ago and shall we say the top slide was not the best as regards fit, form, function! I duly replaced it with a solid block of CI and what a nightmare that was also, I really missed the angular settings etc.

So going back to the original top slide, all the dovetails were properly machined, a new thicker gib strip also made, extra gib adjusting screws fitted and finally the gib was dowelled, plus a slide locking lever added.

This made a vast difference to the depth of cut now achievable and I still have the angular setting facility.

The CI solid block now resides on my garage floor quietly rusting away.

Tony

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

If you do decide to use cast iron, the mess can be reduced by siting a strong magnet under newspaper, under the chuck, or as close as possible to the bed of the milling machine.

A lot of the cast iron dust will be attracted to the magnet and can be disposed of more easily when cutting is finished, or when the quantity built up is at maximum acceptable.

Bear in mind that cast iron is strong in compression but weak in tension, so will be unsuitable for the actual toolpost (Where the clamping screws will put the upper part in tension.  So design carefully before you use it

Howard

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Personally. would be a bit wary of dispensing with the Top Slide.

If you want to turn a taper, or a countersink, or even turn to specific length, up to a shoulder, you will have the faff of refitting it.

If you wanted a four way (Surely one came on the lathe?) you could make one from laminations.

(That was how I made the four way rear toolpost for my lathe, to match the standard front one.)

Howard

[David SeniorParticipant @davidsenior29320]

idriver

I’m all in favour of removing the top slide and replacing it with a solid block. As you say, you can re-fit the top slide if you need to do short tapers.

I made my solid tool post the same thickness as the original top slide so that I easily replace it without changing tool heights (my QCTP will fit on the top slide as well), but then I went one stage further and fitted an ELS so the chances of me needing the top slide are further reduced.

Mine was made from cast iron bought from M-Machine.

Dave

[David Senior]

On David Senior Said:

idriver

I’m all in favour of removing the top slide and replacing it with a solid block. As you say, you can re-fit the top slide if you need to do short tapers.

I made my solid tool post the same thickness as the original top slide so that I easily replace it without changing tool heights (my QCTP will fit on the top slide as well), but then I went one stage further and fitted an ELS so the chances of me needing the top slide are further reduced.

Mine was made from cast iron bought from M-Machine.

Dave

Cheers Dave,

I am planning much the same, as per the attached sketches.

[Howard Lewis]

On Howard Lewis Said:

If you do decide to use cast iron, the mess can be reduced by siting a strong magnet under newspaper, under the chuck, or as close as possible to the bed of the milling machine.

A lot of the cast iron dust will be attracted to the magnet and can be disposed of more easily when cutting is finished, or when the quantity built up is at maximum acceptable.

Bear in mind that cast iron is strong in compression but weak in tension, so will be unsuitable for the actual toolpost (Where the clamping screws will put the upper part in tension.  So design carefully before you use it

Howard

Thank’s Howard, a good point well made regarding the strength of cast. I think the biggest risk for my design would be the pressure on the top part where I am adding grub screws to steady the QCTP against twisting forces. 👍

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

If You use SG cast iron It is clean to use and stronger

SG cast iron, also known as spheroidal graphite cast iron or ductile iron, is a type of cast iron where the graphite is in a spheroidal (nodular) shape, rather than the flake shape found in grey cast iron. This nodular graphite structure significantly improves the material’s mechanical properties, particularly its ductility, toughness, and impact resistance, making it suitable for a wide range of applications.

M machine metal stocks this.  I recently made some parts from this recently for a slideway base.  Also put a magnet into a plastic bag around the machining of cast iron. The swarf sticks onto the bag and when lifted turn the bag inside out so the swarf is inside the bag and the magnet is clear of swarf.

David

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

<p style=”text-align: left;”>Good idea to eliminate the top slide except when you need it. I made an adapter for my Super 7 CNC conversion from a lathe backplate casting from RDG IIRC. Especially useful if you have a DRO and want reliable tool offsets.  I also added an anti rotation dowel.</p>

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

John’s pictures rather point to just fabricating something from plates reducing cost and weight. Even “mixed mode” with a baseplate of alloy.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Having those two pieces to take horizontal screws to lock the toolpost into position is likely to result in a greater need to swap to the top slide as at least in my case the need to set the QCTP at an angle cones up quite a bit to get a tool to clear the work or chuck.

If you do feel the need them maybe have a “L” shaped piece of steel that can be screwed down into the top of the block so at least it could be quickly removed, will also make machining that tight internal corner easy as a bonus.

If you are putting so much force into the cut to rotate the QCTP then you are pushing the lathe and also if you do have a crash what will give if the tool simply can’t move away from the chuck or work?

There was a thread a month or two back about making a similar block, your design which puts the tool towards the headstock side of the cross slide will result in needing to extend the tailstock barrel ecsessively when using tailstock support if the gib screws are not to hit the tailstock base. So less rigid wher eit counts more. maling that “L” separate you could then rotate the block 90deg which would put the toolpost further to the right.

Design Advice!- Warco GH600 Solid Topslide

Do you have a DRO fitted? if not how will you put on a small cut, eg if you measuer a part in the chuck to be 0.1mm longer than needed how will you put on a 0.1mm cut. The carriage handwheel dial is useless for this having very large divisions. If you do have a DRO then even more likely to need excessive tailstock projection.

 

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

Having those two pieces to take horizontal screws to lock the toolpost into position is likely to result in a greater need to swap to the top slide as at least in my case the need to set the QCTP at an angle cones up quite a bit to get a tool to clear the work or chuck.

If you do feel the need them maybe have a “L” shaped piece of steel that can be screwed down into the top of the block so at least it could be quickly removed, will also make machining that tight internal corner easy as a bonus.

An excellent point I had not considered, thanks Jason. I will redesign it without the L shape and see how it goes. If I do find it is required I re-machine the block to add a bolt on version.

Re the offset, I have deliberately spaced the 4 mounting holes at 100mm centres to allow the block to me rotated with QCTP offset to right front, right rear, left front, left rear as required.

 

 

 

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