The true cost of Diesel?

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Hi, Not Done It Yet, the French may well have demonstrated that it is theoretically possible to travel long distances with " on the go " charging but can you really believe that it will become a reality in this country by 2040. The cost of infrastructure and new technology would bankrupt this country if we were even in a solvent state, but we are technically bankrupt now, we cannot afford even basic refurbishment of our worn out highways, our roads infrastructure let alone other areas of our country are little better now than the third world countries. A much saner proposal would be to phase over to hybrid vehicles, not ideal from the pollution aspect but certainly achievable financially. I reiterate my thought that the politicians in power now are promising the unattainable in order to secure our admiration and praise at how clever they appear to be. It is pie in the sky and only time will resolve who is right with their opinions. Dave

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Vic on 06/11/2017 12:38:35:

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 06/11/2017 11:00:25:

Posted by Vic on 06/11/2017 09:51:33:

This new Petrol engine may help given the chance.

**LINK**

WOW, a Diesel engine running on petrol

Russell

No, it’s a combined spark and compression ignition Petrol engine. No Diesel fuel used at all.

Strictly speaking Diesel is an engine with compression ignition triggered by the injection of fuel. 'Diesel' fuel can be oil, flour, coal dust, virtually anything…

[steamdaveParticipant @steamdave]

Posted by not done it yet on 06/11/2017 13:19:46:

but the reality is that the technology doesn't yet exist to permit long durations without recharge,

Wrong again, I afraid! It does exist. The French have recently demonstrated an 'on-the-go' charging system that can supply an electric vehicle with 20kW. Sufficent for a reasonably sized car to travel at the speed limit.

Installed on through routes/trunk roads/motorways it may well offer the long distance traveller to travel considerable distances without needing to recharge at a static charging point.

Only one problem there: what happens when you are parked up in a traffic jam on the motorway with stop-go for 15 miles or more and you are low on battery power?

Dave
The Emerald Isle

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

I seem to remember a while back cars being converted to Lpg. Though lately it does not seem to be prominent any more. Perhaps this might be more viable in the long term?

Clive

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Chaps,

No good hoping that nothing will change because it will be difficult to manage with electric cars. There isn't a choice between electric and oil, at the moment the only alternative to IC, good or bad, is electric.

Problem One is health damaging pollution and Global Warming. Let's ignore them by pretending that both those are a tax raising conspiracy designed by 'them' to worry and annoy us.

Problem Two is much harder to dismiss. Oil is going to run out and once it's gone it's gone. Peak Oil occurs when no new oil fields are discovered, and when recovery technologies like fracking, can't get more out of the ground.

Unless some massive new oil field is discovered, Peak oil will occur between 2006 and 2020. Note that it may have already happened. Meanwhile, demand for oil continues to rise across the world. As soon as demand for oil exceeds what can be extracted prices will rise sharply. Market forces will overwhelm technology and politics in short order. I think the cost of fuel will price most people out of motoring over the next 30 years.

Our best chance is that electric vehicles improve. Even so, it's difficult to see how a permanent oil shortage won't cause dramatic lifestyle changes for everybody apart from the super-rich.

Dave

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Haven't heard much about hydrogen recently

Maybe it'll explode into the market at some point

[vintagengineerParticipant @vintagengineer]

Both petrol and diesel engines will run a number of alternative fuels. Diesels were designed to run on peanut oil and will run on virtually any oil including used engine oil. Petrol engines will run on any combustible gas and liquids, including alcohol and hydrogen. When it runs on hydrogen it has no exhaust gas other than steam.

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Alan you say that "I live 5 km from the closest shops" – not just in OZ then !

The nearest fuel ( and shops) to me is 10km away and I live in a rural , but by no means remote, part of Devon.

The greatest problem I can see with recharging is that the power infrastructure in general, and particularly in rural areas, is unlikely to be able to support the kind of demand made by recharging vehicle batteries. It's not just the requirement for building additional power stations but also the need to augment the whole of the distribution network.

Norman

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Steamdave,

You might have forgotten that leccy cars can use zero power at standstill. If they can charge at 20kW while traveling at 70mph, I'm sure they can charge at 10mph, or even stationary.

Do think before being so negative!

Samsaranda,

I didn't mention any timescale. All I said was basically oil is a finite resource – it WILL run out, sooner or later. By then there may be other means of cheaper transport.

A dedicated lane on a motorway for all suitable vehicles, kept in lane and a fair distance apart, at high constant speed is a future possibility. Danes or Swedes were testing overhead pick ups for trucks on one section of road andwe already have pilot schemes for one truck driver and a couple of slave vehicles following behind.

Developments are taking place in many places over a range of future possible options.

One thought was that the next oil, produced by the planet, might be derived from the human race and its herds of animals! Although I doubt there would be sufficient numbers dying only in one area to make any appreciable amount of oil in 100 million years time! (No oil from the dinosaur extinction as far as I know) And the human race will have deserted the planet long begore then!

There is always the promise of boundless electricity generation from nuclear fusion reactors. Of course, that dream might come to reality in the next few decades…..Flying pigs and cows jumping over the moon on past promises, but they are getting nearer with developments, and have run a reactor for a finite time while actually producing more energy than it consumes, so progress is taking place.

Still makes no odds on the cost of a litre of petrol or diesel, mind…

[Rik ShawParticipant @rikshaw]

I am convinced that the sole future energy source for mankind will be from that big golden ball in the sky. Solar panels are just our first crude attempt at harnessing this free energy. Watch this space – you ain't seen nothing yet!

Rik

[vintagengineerParticipant @vintagengineer]

So can IC engines, but electric cars only use zero power at standstill if you switch them off! They still use power for heating/cooling, radio and lights.

Posted by not done it yet on 06/11/2017 16:11:33:

Steamdave,

You might have forgotten that leccy cars can use zero power at standstill. If they can charge at 20kW while traveling at 70mph, I'm sure they can charge at 10mph, or even stationary.

Do think before being so negative!

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Not Done It Yet, My comments may appear negative but they were referenced to the commitment of our politicians that the changeover date would be 2040, that appears to be unrealistic bearing in mind the huge financial resources that would be required. My reference to hybrid vehicles doesn't have to rely on our diminishing oil reserves which are rapidly running out and are finite, hydrogen hybrids are already a realistic prospect using hydrogen which can easily be produced using solar energy with the bonus of only producing H2O as a pollutant. My belief is that pure electric traction is not achievable within the timescale our politicians have decreed and will have to be modified to be practicable.

Dave

[Martin DowingParticipant @martindowing58466]

@SillyOldDuffer,

If they manage to work out technology how to exploit methane hydrates deposits, Peak Oil may well become irrelevant for many decades.

Peak oil and related troubles may well progress in some weird way. Prices of oil might fall and yet only few will be able to afford it.

What we are observing right now is an economic collapse. So called "West" seems to be privilidged in this competition. It remains to be seen if Asia can win and transform to more sustainable economy before lights are off.

Martin

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Hello Silly Old Duffer, how long have we got before the lights go out?

Dave

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Vic on 06/11/2017 12:38:35:

No, it’s a combined spark and compression ignition Petrol engine. No Diesel fuel used at all.

I didn't mention "diesel fuel". It was the compression ignition engine that Herr Diesel invented. Thus a compression ignition engine running on petrol (or any other fuel such as the paraffin/ether/castor oil mixture we used to use in model aircraft engines) is a Diesel engine.

Russell

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

It should be noted that a hydrogen fueled IC engine can produce NOx just as well as a fossil fueled one… Hydrogen is also an expensive energy source at this time, being produced from fossil fuels.

Edited By Mark Rand on 06/11/2017 19:45:35

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 06/11/2017 14:56:54:

Posted by Vic on 06/11/2017 12:38:35:

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 06/11/2017 11:00:25:

Posted by Vic on 06/11/2017 09:51:33:

This new Petrol engine may help given the chance.

**LINK**

WOW, a Diesel engine running on petrol

Russell

No, it’s a combined spark and compression ignition Petrol engine. No Diesel fuel used at all.

Strictly speaking Diesel is an engine with compression ignition triggered by the injection of fuel. 'Diesel' fuel can be oil, flour, coal dust, virtually anything…

Call it what you like, a car running on Petrol is a Petrol engine to everyone else.

[vintagengineerParticipant @vintagengineer]

Air contains 78% nitrogen so why NOx so bad?

Posted by Mark Rand on 06/11/2017 19:44:21:

It should be noted that a hydrogen fueled IC engine can produce NOx just as well as a fossil fueled one… Hydrogen is also an expensive energy source at this time, being produced from fossil fuels.

Edited By Mark Rand on 06/11/2017 19:45:35

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by vintagengineer on 06/11/2017 21:33:26:

Air contains 78% nitrogen so why NOx so bad?

NOx dissolves in water to produce acid, Nitrogen doesn't

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

Vic – a compression ignition engine runs on what is known in the subject of heat engines as the diesel cycle, named after Rudolf Diesel who designed it, so Russel and Neil very correctly pointed out that it is a diesel engine and that it doesn't have to run on diesel to be called a diesel engine, it can use many different fuels as well as diesel fuel.

Look in the field of model aeroplanes, plenty of very small engines there are called diesel engines as they are compression ignition engines. They do not have a spark plug and fire as a result of the heat of the compression igniting the fuel/air mixture, whatever fuel that happens to bel They do not run on diesel fuel as you seem to understand it but on a fuel that is a mix of ether, kerosene, castor oil and a dash of isopropyl nitrate, which fuel is also, in the model airplane world, known as diesel fuel.

It is not a question of called it what we like but of calling it correctly for what it is – a diesel engine.

Chris

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

So a petrol fueled deisel engine then.

:0)

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 07/11/2017 08:50:23:

So a petrol fueled deisel engine then.

:0)

Nope, a petrol fuelled Diesel engine

[vintagengineerParticipant @vintagengineer]

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Posted by David Standing 1 on 07/11/2017 08:55:47:

Posted by Martin Kyte on 07/11/2017 08:50:23:

So a petrol fueled deisel engine then.

:0)

Nope, a petrol fuelled Diesel engine

I apologise.

[VicParticipant @vic]

Oxford are aiming to be first with their ICE ban in 2020:

**LINK**

Only a few city centre streets to start but it’s planned to gradually extend it.

[Author]

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