The cultural status of engineers in the UK

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

A graduate engineer can work out the square root of a jar of pickles, but unfortunately can't get the lid off……

[Anonymous]

Posted by Max Tolerance on 10/01/2020 19:26:42:

However every year I get an invite to Cambridge Kings College where I spend time with some of the brightest young minds in the country.

Intriguing, which event is that? One wouldn't normally associate King's with engineering.

Andrew

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Over here an Engineer is someone who comes to put a new washer on your tap , or perhaps to replace the filter on your washing machine. All very Hi Tech stuff !

I have even seen a guy who repairs bikes describe himself as an "Engineer" No kidding !

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by mark costello 1 on 10/01/2020 18:19:11:

Isn't it strange that in the first half of a show the bad guys never miss, and the good guys cannot hit anything. On the second half the bad guys cannot hit anything and the good guys can't miss.

And everyone has an inexhaustible supply of ammunition!

My favourite is the one where the good guy shoots down a helicopter with a pistol! This he does whilst being machine-gunned by 3 or 4 professional killers armed with assault rifles.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Posted by old mart on 10/01/2020 16:42:43:

In my book, an engineer is someone who has completed at least to university degree level.

I started my working life as an engineering apprentice, then a machine tool fitter/electrical fitter, then a Reliability Engineer and finally as a electro mechanical service engineer in machine tools, robotics and industrial washing machine, in Germany I would work for Herr Engineer as he was top dog, in Italy the Engineer was also top dog and below woud be Senior Technician then Technician.

I have spent my whole working life with my hands and worked with virtually every area of engineering, in that time I never met an engineer with a degree that knew what he was talking about, they were so clever they were thick, they couldnt see the wood for the tree's and wouldnt know how to use tools. There was one exception and the big difference was that he worked like me with his hands then did a degree in engineering so he could match the theory with practice.

Martin P

[Martin Dilly 2Participant @martindilly2]

Only slight thread drift here. The media have a great deal to do with the average British person's perception of engineering. So often on radio or TV people refer to 'the creative professions' and you just know by that they mean theatre or art or music or ballet or literature, and probably think the chap lying under their car clutching a greasy rag is an engineer. In fact the one really creative profession, without which absolutely none of the rest could exist is, of course, engineering. Without it there'd be no theatres built, no paper or canvas, no musical instruments or recording, no dance floors and no printing presses.

[WatfordParticipant @watford]

It probably did not help when some jerk started calling them 'makers'.

Mike.

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by Watford on 10/01/2020 22:14:06:

It probably did not help when some jerk started calling them 'makers'.

Mike.

Which is a much better term than 'model engineer' for what a lot of us do.

One of our new ringers recently asked me for advice about a hole-drilling jig 'because you're an engineer'. He was surprised when I said "I'm a mechanic, not an engineer".

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

Posted by old mart on 10/01/2020 16:42:43:

In my book, an engineer is someone who has completed at least to university degree level.

I agree. After completing an engineering course, gain experience, join the relevant professional institution, then register as an engineer with the Engineering council. Either Technician Engineer, Incorporated or Chartered Engineer. Then, possibly as a Eur Ing. Then, in the UK, you can call yourself an engineer.

There are other routes to achieving engineer status, based on experience, rather than focusing too much on academic achievement. I've been involved in peer reviewing work from people attempting to gain engineer status through this route and have come across some extremely competent individuals, and a few complete idiots!

None of this is easy, to achieve engineer status takes a good few years and to belittle it seems very wrong to me. I suspect that the cultural status of engineers has diminished due to whats involved is not understood.

A good analogy could be the term "GT", grand tourer, as applied to cars. At one time it it was an expensive car capable of covering large distances quickly and, for the driver and passengers, comfortably. The term was held in awe by motoring enthusiasts. Then Ford stuck a GT badge on the Cortina, then the Transit…..

John

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

…' I allus wanted to be an injuneer, now I is wun', has been said over many a decade, in jest or as a mickey taking point. Seriously though; when I was an apprentice training instructor there was a yearly ( 3 mo ) intake of 'graduate engineers' from the local uni who were tasked with designing a project then producing said project along with a report on the purpose, manufacture process & did the project meet the aims of their design & client requirements. Academically they were brilliant, they could tell you the fine end of a fart, what speed it travels at, what volume it has & its molecular weight; I joke of course , extremely nice guys to say the least, but ask them to go through the process of material purchase, tooling selection, machine set up processes, speeds / feeds of drilling / turning, accumulative errors on marking out etc. well I say no more. With the help of the top 2nd year apprentices ( NVQ L2/3 ), & overseen by myself, they always ended up with a valid design / project, so from my perspective… 'Engineer' … academically qualified. Some companies will accept min' HND to be classified as Engineer on their books, then > BEng, BSc etc. therefore the old adage 'theory & practice never meet' applies, no disrespect to Engineers of course.

In the same context another aspect is the Merchant Navy, where the engine room staff were called ( post ww2 ) 'Engineering Officers' iirc, myself included i.e.Jnr & 4th Engineer so it's a subject for lots of debate on the definition 'Engineer'

George.

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

As a total 'outsider' in this debate, (my 'real-world' hands-on experience limited to a supervised engine change on a Whirlwind helo!) I view anyone with the sort of expertise demonstrated daily on this forum with total awe (and jealousy!).School grudgingly allowed an occasional foray into badly equipped and 'taught' woodwork and my route here was via a middle-aged addiction to R/C model aircraft, thence evening classes at Witney tech. This is NOT good grounding for being in present company.

To make any sort of generalisation as to relative merits of engineering skills or disciplines, seems to me to be quite pointless. For example, how would one differentiate between, for example, the late, much lamented, John S and Joseph Noci 2? Quite different skill level applications but a commonality of confidence in applying those skills … and that is where I see the difference between we mere 'dabblers' and those with engineering abilities … confidence – knowing (from experience) that what they are about to undertake is possible and within their 'skill set', whether that be based on intellectual or practical considerations.

Real engineers are important … repeat ad infinitum!

rgds

Bill

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

One of the ships in the fleet the company I worked for had, had a visit from an engineer with a degree. His thesis written for his degree was on boilers. He was being shown round the ships engine room when they came upon this large piece of 'equipment'. Whats that asked the degree engineer? Thats the boiler replied the ships engineer.

I also worked in the food industry for many years. There, the engineering department were a necessary evil, just to be tolerated at best, with all the production and packaging staff sure in their knowledge that they knew better. Except when their machines broke down of course.

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Posted by Cornish Jack on 11/01/2020 12:54:01:

As a total 'outsider' in this debate, (my 'real-world' hands-on experience limited to a supervised engine change on a Whirlwind helo!) I view anyone with the sort of expertise demonstrated daily on this forum with total awe (and jealousy!).School grudgingly allowed an occasional foray into badly equipped and 'taught' woodwork and my route here was via a middle-aged addiction to R/C model aircraft, thence evening classes at Witney tech. This is NOT good grounding for being in present company.

To make any sort of generalisation as to relative merits of engineering skills or disciplines, seems to me to be quite pointless. For example, how would one differentiate between, for example, the late, much lamented, John S and Joseph Noci 2? Quite different skill level applications but a commonality of confidence in applying those skills … and that is where I see the difference between we mere 'dabblers' and those with engineering abilities … confidence – knowing (from experience) that what they are about to undertake is possible and within their 'skill set', whether that be based on intellectual or practical considerations.

Real engineers are important … repeat ad infinitum!

rgds

Bill

Well said Bill,

Having spent my most of my working life involving participation in the design, project management and realisation of many "engineering" projects ranging from airborne surveillance, nuclear engineering, computers, broadcast equipment and a whole host of other items, I am considered to be an Engineer not just an engineering technician.( I do also like getting my hands dirty, if that helps.)

In addition I do have those relevant Post Nomials which state what I am.

That said, I am happy to be called a Model Engineer in this hobby field.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Well I don't have a degree but I am an engineer. I qualified as a licenced aircraft engineer nearly 40 years ago. This is one of the few engineering jobs that actually need formal licencing. More recently I became a Chartered Engineer (and a Fellow of the Royal Aeronautical Society). So I don't agree that a degree defines an engineer.
As mentioned the image of engineers on the media does not help. Even on those programs showing engineering tend to concentrate on hitting things with hammers and things going wrong. This is becuse the media is looking to be entertaining, but the judge is the producer / director. I've been behind the scenes and on some engineering programmes and what ended up on the screen bore little resemblance to what actually went wrong.

SWMBO has degrees and a doctorate but does not earn anywhere near as much as I do

[Reg RossiterParticipant @regrossiter24538]

To become a Chief Engineer Officer at sea you require a Certificate of Competency, a process that can be expected to take about ten years. A degree will get you exemptions to some of the academic subjects but won't get you your 'ticket'.

Reg

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

I am a qualified, but not Chartered, engineer.

I have met Engineers of all sorts during my working life. Some were theoretically brilliant, but impractical, some were practically good, but weaker on the theory. The worst ones were those who "knew all about it" Too often they didn't.

It takes all sorts. A blend of skills is required.

But, as already laboured, Engineers are not appreciated in UK. Once on holiday, we met two Dutch couples. When they found that I was an engineer, and even more so when I fixed a problem on the younger one's car, they were very respectful. dates to the "being in trade" rather than a "gentleman" mindset.

A degree in Law can be very useful, but is of little use changing wheel on the side of a motorway, if you don't know the difference between a left or right hand thread!

Horses for courses. We all have different skills that are needed at different times.

But without engineers the present world would not exist, and ploughing would still be done by pushing a deer antler through the soil.

The mere fact that you can read this proves the point!i

Howard

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

Posted by John Haine on 10/01/2020 10:52:52:

Please PLEASE don't lets get started on this hoary old chestnut yet again! This has been discussed to death here I'm sure and in publications from the engineering institutions for at least 50 years. And it's not just an issue in the UK. We all know that without engineers society would be nowhere, just suck it up and get on with life.

I'm sorry that I distressed you by my question John – I didn't know that this had been discussed before on this forum. Links to previous discussions would be more useful than 'suck up and get on on with life' which doesn't really help me.

Thanks for other replies though. The story behind my question goes back to a telephone call I had from my sister. "What is heat" she asked "Has it anything to do with motion?" That lead, by a very tangled route, to wondering about about the status of engineers.

Robin.

 

Edited By Robin Graham on 12/01/2020 01:03:22

Edited By Robin Graham on 12/01/2020 01:03:45

Edited By Robin Graham on 12/01/2020 01:20:00

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Robin Graham on 09/01/2020 23:11:01:

…

What struck me was that hero of the German film was the Chief Engineer who got the thing going again against all odds, whilst the hero in the British boats is usually the Captain. The strength of the British Captain is that by virtue of his cut glass accent, Oxbridge education and commanding manner he brings the crew together and they save the day, against all odds of course.

…

Robin

I suspect the film may well have been 'Das Boot' as I remember watching similar scenes when it was serailised on TV sometime shortly after the dinosaurs died out.

It's true that the Chief engineer was given a lot of the kudos due for recovering the boat's mobility, but nevertheless I thought the captain was held in much the same respect as the captain of a British sub would have been – and it was the captain who had to take on the task of bringing a dangerously-traumatised crewman back under control. That was clearly outside the scope of what the CE could've been expected to handle.

It's also true that all of the lauded engineers of our history – Brunel, Mitchell, Issigonis and very many others – have had a whole army of unsung enablers behind them who worked the devil out of the detail embedded in their often simplistically-expressed ideas.

The fact is that engineering arises out of a co-operation of a whole lot of different skills that varies with hte nature of the project and the conditions in which it proceeds. Few if any of us can expect to have them all. I think that mean-spiritedness in recognising the contribution of other skillsets to solutions – engineering, financial, political or anything else – is one of the true marks of a declining civilisation.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Too me Engineering is a team sport, needing people having basic practical skills up to the Ideas Men. Bad enough that Joe Public sometime demeans engineers, surely much worse when we do it to ourselves! One nonsense is believing theoretical engineers are somehow inferior because they're not good in practical situations! Another is believing that craftsmen are inferior because they lack academic qualifications.

For me what differentiates top-end Engineers from most of us is their ability to meet novel requirements by applying a wide range of knowledge including the ability to estimate costs. It's about problem solving.

For example, building a 19th century steamship, the vessel couldn't exist without the practical skills of Iron Workers, Riveters, and many other craftsmen. But craft skills are a dead end; to advance and develop requires others to understand the theory and how to apply it. At root the problem is economic – steamships were bought to make money, in competition with other ship owners. That means developing engines & boilers that achieve maximum range for minimum fuel consumption, propellers and hull forms curved to maximise performance, an affordable structure strong enough not to break due to hogging and sagging in a seaway, and with the loaded and unloaded weight carefully balanced so the vessel neither rolls uncomfortably or capsizes. Also essential that the vessel is adapted to take best advantage of tonnage regulations (which effect tariffs), minimise turnaround times in port, and recover their build and running costs well within the working life of the ship. A great deal of thought was necessary to get this right, most of it done behind the scenes. While riveters were important, they had no work unless the designer was able to come up with a better ship and someone else was able to sell it. And of course, ships being hideously expensive, financiers, bankers and insurance are essential too.

Today, the engineering behind Pharmaceuticals, Electronics, Communications, Computing, Aerospace, Energy, Materials, Entertainment, and Manufacturing is all off-the-scale complicated, certainly more than any individual can comprehend. Keeping it going needs a clever team with multiple mixed engineering skills. Although the future is bright for engineers at all levels, there is one thing to beware. It is the constant need to move with the times. Riveting once provided many thousands of jobs in the UK, now almost none. Desperately hanging on to obsolescent technical skills and methods is disastrous for individuals and the nation.

Dave

[JAParticipant @ja]

There are many young, bright and highly qualified engineers in industry that have no practical experience at all. In many cases they have never even picked up a spanner or hammer. This is realised by employers as a major problem which needs addressing. Some employers now expect and encourage some practical experience.

There are many reasons for the lack of practical experience, culture being only one. The dumbing down of schooling to a rigid syllabus, the non-fix it nature of all the products we use and the technological/electronic "revolution" are others.

JA

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

Where I work we employed a fresh graduate out of uni with a degree in electronics. He told us almost all of the electronics work that he did was simulated circuits designed on a PC. At no stage did he ever build any of these circuits. In addition he also said that most electronics is software programming pic chips.

My nephew is doing a degree in aerospace engineering now in his second year of 3 year degree. Not even been in a workshop to make or test anything yet, because he doesnt need to I guess, it's all CAD.

I recognise that engineering is a broad umbrella, it's the word "engineer" that is used by anyone now.

I have no degree, left school with nothing but apprentice trained and HND + HND and after a lot of hard work I am recognised by the engineering council as an IEng. But I recognise that there are much more brainy engineers than me that can design stuff and innovate.

Can I just throw something into the discussion? Regarding the "wobbly bridge" in London some years ago now, apparently designed by an architect not an engineer. An engineer had to modify it stop wobbling…

I agree with lots on here, this subject raises its head many times and not just on this forum but also in the engineering institutes as well.

We need to just get on with the fantastic new word I learnt on the forum……"latheing"! and stop worrying about the word engineer….

[Anonymous]

Posted by derek hall 1 on 12/01/2020 14:26:45:

We need to just get on with the fantastic new word I learnt on the forum……"latheing"!

That's a spelling mistake; should be "lather". Some members seem to get into one at the drop of a hat.

SoD has hit the nail on the head. Real world engineering is all about money. I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to find out which Neville Shute Norway quote is appropriate, but as a hint it's in the frontispiece of his book 'Slide Rule'.

I would disagree with Bill. What interests me are techniques outside my skill set. Of course it helps to know people have done it before, but if I haven't then I want to give it a go. That explains why my engine build is all over the place. I'm keen to do what I haven't done before. Not finish off by repeating what's gone before.

Andrew

Andrew

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

It's my recollection that 'HMS Marlborough Will Enter Harbour', while featuring a stiff-upper-lipped captain gave pretty fair credit to the engineering crew.

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by derek hall 1 on 12/01/2020 14:26:45:

Where I work we employed a fresh graduate out of uni with a degree in electronics.

I think it's always been the way that on university courses the time for exercising practical skills is pretty limited, as true in my day as today. Certainly my field skills were honed after I did my degree, although I did get a good start from 'pracs' and field courses..

My daughter, who is doing an archaeology degree, spent two weeks on a dig last summer. I drove her past a playing field of civil engineering students with ranging poles and dumpy levels and she questioned the value of a day doing that. I pointed out that I had to learn how to use one for botanical surveys With some irony a month or two later she ended up using one to draw a profile through a ha-ha

Of course if I do any survey mapping now, I just let an app on my phone record my gps track

Neil

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 12/01/2020 15:58:05:

Posted by derek hall 1 on 12/01/2020 14:26:45:

.

I think it's always been the way that on university courses the time for exercising practical skills is pretty limited, as true in my day as today. Certainly my field skills were honed after I did my degree, although I did get a good start from 'pracs' and field courses..

My daughter, who is doing an archaeology degree, spent two weeks on a dig last summer. I drove her past a playing field of civil engineering students with ranging poles and dumpy levels and she questioned the value of a day doing that. I pointed out that I had to learn how to use one for botanical surveys With some irony a month or two later she ended up using one to draw a profile through a ha-ha

Of course if I do any survey mapping now, I just let an app on my phone record my gps track

Neil

Neil,

The difference is that you were taught to do a field survey with ranging poles and levels, even though you now use an APP you still appreciate the practical use of the other equipment. When we were all at school we did our multiplication tables until we knew them backwards and us oldies can rapidly work out our maths without thinking, my Daughter when little requested a calculator so I suggested she prove that she could + – / and x manually then I would consider it as how would she know if the answer was correct unless she had an approximation in her head. Theory is only part 1, part 2 comes when you use the knowledge practically.

Martin P

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