Silver Soldering

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Posted by Ramon Wilson on 07/01/2012 10:24:48:

Hi Terry,

 

Yes, I agree, there are always more ways to skin a cat but I was trying to keep it basic as Wolfie, now beginning another new experience, probably only needs sufficient information to solder up his inlet and exhaust pipes

 

The techique you describe is indeed another way – I think the small pieces are referred to as ‘pellions’ – as is winding up small rings of solder to apply to pipe flanges, rivets etc. before heating.

 

By using this method on small parts it can create the potential that you can end up with too much or too little on the join as the solder melts but it’s horses for course really. However as for poking it with something – I’m not particulaly enarmoured with that thought if the parts are not pinned together in some way as they could easily be moved out of register……….

 

……………………….The solder stick (from wire section upwards) should not melt as soon as it’s brought into the flame. If the job has been brought to the correct temperature first, the flame can be moved just slightly to allow the solder to touch the join. Of course if the flame is big enough to build a boiler and the job is 1/8 pipe then you do have a point

 

Many having a go at silver soldering for the first time do not get the workpiece to temperature first, bringing the solder in too quick in the process. This does lead to melting of the solder and great blobs of it all over the place hence the advice to Wolfie.

 

……………On that note if you dont want silver solder to take to a specific area then before fluxing the join ‘coat’ the area with a soft lead pencil -one of those flat carpemters pencils are ideal.

 

As previously said – it’s a simple process but one which can so easily look a mess

so practice first

 

Regards – Ramon

 

 

Edited By Ramon Wilson on 07/01/2012 10:30:14

Hi Ramon,

 

I wasn’t criticising your post, just pointing out the different ways of skinning that cat. I hope you didn’t find anything offensive there, if you did I apologise. You know how much I respect your work and advice.

 

I think that you may be correct about ‘pellions’ but looking back through those mists (now fog?) of time I now recall the old boy talking about ‘panels’ perhaps a corruption? We simply used very small pieces of solder but applied carefully spaced, attached with a tiny bit of flux and then main flux over the top. This prevented too much movement. The ‘panels’ were snipped into the wet flux dish and applied with a small pointed paint brush. As for applying too much, that really didn’t happen as we used mainly hallmarking quality solder which we had to purchase (students!). Some things are almost impossible to acheive without using this technique such as making a hinged lid using chenier tubing.  Applying solder to this in any other way usually results in flooding and a solid mass no loner a hinge.

 

The prod I use is 0.5mm stainless steel ground to a point at the business end and a ‘ring’ handle at the end so can be used with great delicacy. With some jewellery it involved many small parts such as yours but we used soft iron binding wire (available from florists) to secure the parts before soldering, looked rather like a cage with complex bits, so movement wasn’t really a problem and the solder only occasionally moved a couple of mm or so. We just had to ensure that there was not excessive solder when using precious metals especially. It could also be expensive on larger items such as silver coffee pots. Most of our early work though was done with copper for obvious reasons and we used the same techniques very successfully.

 

I agree about the beginner not getting the temperature right before applying the solder, that is perhaps the most important aspect apart from cleanliness, but I simply tried emphasise the problem of passing the rod through a flame which a tyro is apt to do. One advantage of pre applying panels of solder is that with a smaller torch (less grain growth in parent metal) once the solder starts to melt in one place the heat can be carefully focussed and moved around the joint and the solder will follow, This gives a more controlled flow of solder to ensure a large joint is fully made. It doesn’t have to happen all at once.

 

I’m glad to see that you also recommend a soft pencil (2b or softer) but I also find ‘Tippex’ is very good as a solder resist. How many times do you see boilers that look as if the tube plates are made from silver solder?

Best regards

Terry

 

Edited By Terryd on 08/01/2012 08:46:50

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

As AndyP said earlier I’ve always known the bits of solder as “Pallions” this is also what JM refer to them as.

 

http://mrooker.com/JMUmetals/technical/Soldering.html

 

Though Like Ramon I usually prefer to feed in the stck.

 

J

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Hi Terry – don’t even think about it – absolutely no offence taken I assure you nor none intended but I just couldn’t resist the reference to the borax cone and the ceramic dish. It was done with a wry smile however – for what you see is what I have used for years. It all comes down to the fact that like many experiences this is all about backgrounds.

 

Mine began on a shipyard apprenticed as a welder to a Jack Wilson (no relation, pure coincidence). Virtually all the welders on the yard save two were electric arc but Jack and one other still used gas. Jack was a third generation welder, his father was still working on the yard and his grandfather had one time been part owner of a ship repairers bought out by the yard a few years before I began.

‘Brazing’ was used a lot particularly on copper pipe and the method described above is what I was shown and have stuck to ever since. Last week as I did the exhaust flanges I could not help but think of Jack and gave him a ring. He’s well into his eighties now but still has a great memory for times on the yard. Despite being 67 to him I’m still very much his ‘boy’

 

‘Pellions’ – ‘Pallions’ ( certain song springs to mind) I can only say that this came from a distant memory too. Quite a long time ago the members of the Norwich club were given a talk by one Albert Peacock. A truly outstanding model engineer as I’m sure those who knew him would agree to. Albert was a London silversmith by trade and it showed in anything he made. On this particular night he brought along a gauge one Oliver Cromwell and described how he had made the nameplate. He had formed the letters from fine brass wire breaking them down into three basic parts – I -L – C – and using parts of these basic shapes he then silver soldered them together to make the individual letters. He did this by pinning them to a charcoal block and he used – as you describe – ‘pallions’ cut from silver solder foil. I remember distinctly as he wielded a pair of scissors, the strips were “cut about 10 thou wide and 20 long”. He made several short cuts into the sheet then cut across those to produce these seemingly microscopic bits of silver solder.

His torch was very small but had a secondary pipe which he blew through to intensify the flame. Once finished the letters, around 3mm high I would guess, in turn were soldered into the backplate which was then filled with paint and finally flattened back to half the thickness of the wire to produce the maximum width on each letter. Like most of us there that night that was the first time we had seen anything of such skill, he was so unassuming in his description and certainly had every one in awe.

Your talk of hinges reminds me that he also described making the (working) hinges on the tender corridor door and amazed us all by the description of turning, drilling – putting a centre in with a hand engraver as the smallest centre drill was by far too massive- the tubes and finally soldering those pieces to the hinge plate. The whole engine was a complete masterpiece. He made several engines- I think his Royal Scot is in one of Martin Evans’s books

 

Albert is long gone but those of us who were lucky enough to be there that night still talk of it – it was ceratinly a memorable ‘once off ‘ Master Class. I have never bought a charcoal block but have so often thought of that night as I’ve struggled to keep two or more pieces in alignment that I wished I had.

 

Horses for Courses sums it up for me – however it’s done its the end result that’s important and getting there should always be the best part. Can’t reiterate it enough on this particular subject though – do test pieces and practice first

 

Isn’t this hoby great

 

Regards – Ramon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited By Ramon Wilson on 08/01/2012 10:06:52

[Ian HewsonParticipant @ianhewson99641]

Hi
Just a point, too much heat can be a problem, especialy on brass!
This can melt a what seems to be a low temperature.
Regards
Ian

[WolfieParticipant @wolfie]

Good photos there Ramon, I have a flat fire brick to start off with. Can’t find the blowlamp though grrr.

Edited By Wolfie on 09/01/2012 18:49:08

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Posted by JasonB on 08/01/2012 09:06:10:

As AndyP said earlier I’ve always known the bits of solder as “Pallions” this is also what JM refer to them as.

 

http://mrooker.com/JMUmetals/technical/Soldering.html

 

Though Like Ramon I usually prefer to feed in the stck.

 

J

Hi Jason,

I also occasionally feed from a stick, but it depends on the job I’m doing. It is just the way I was trained, we all pick up our own practices and refine them for our own skills. I wouldn’t criticise anyone for not working in the way that I do or pretend that my methods are best, just different. I find that If I use the feed in method I tend to use too much solder (‘just in case’) unless I am very careful whereas by using Pallions I can control exactly how much and where I want the solder to go.

 

Best regards

 

Terry

[WolfieParticipant @wolfie]

OK well finally got round to having a go at this. Not assisted by the fact that the parts are so small and difficult to hold.

 

Attempt no 1: Ring pulled off in my fingers.

 

Attempt no2 Ring pulled off while I was cleaning it up.

 

3rd time I might have managed it but I’m not trying to force it off, should I??

 

How do I know the solder has got inside the joint cos its so small I can’t see it.

And how do I clean off all that black clag?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

If the hole for the litthe spigot was drilled right into the ring then you should see solder insid ethe hole. Pic is too small to see if the solder has really flowed and wetted the two parts externally but you should be able to put a good load on the joint if its sound.

 

Dropping the part in “pickle” will clean it up. This could be household vinegar for a one off but in the long term you need an acid bath, I use the dry crystals which are mixed with water, CuP sell them

 

J

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Looks sound Wolfie – I find silver soldering really rewarding.

 

It should be effectively as strong as the parent metal if a good joint. Tthe two failures might have been due to poor penetration or poor fluxing. Even small parts need a small gap for the solder to run into. At that size I would (sensitive souls look away now) I would mix small blob of spit with a little flux powder, just enough to cover the ring.

 

I use descaler; normally J2 from Lidl, but before Christmas I bought a gallon of industrial (food quality) descaler for £2 at the Bullring.

 

Neil

[Les Jones 1Participant @lesjones1]

Hi Wolfie,

One possible cause for lack of penetration could be that the rod is going into a blind hole. As the silver solder starts to run into the joint a build up of air pressure could occur preventing further penetration. A small hole to allow the air to escape would help.

 

Les

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Wish I still had my swiss welding kit.
Used to butt weld copper wire 0.3mm to 4mm ..no flux no fillet. Still couldn’t joint stainless to copper without solder but would surely have been a handy torch ..cheap too just water and electric…

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Posted by Wolfie on 23/01/2012 18:51:53:

OK well finally got round to having a go at this. Not assisted by the fact that the parts are so small and difficult to hold……………………..

 

3rd time I might have managed it but I’m not trying to force it off, should I??………………..

And how do I clean off all that black clag?

Hi Wolfie,

 

Yes you should try to pull it off, if you can do it by hand then it will not stand up to the forces involved when the engine is running.

 

To clean off the ‘black clag’ – if it is glassy it is molten flux. Easiest is to use mechanical means (the corner of an old file) at first then pickle in acid. If just oxide, clean off with emery.

 

By ‘pickle’ I mean soak in acid solution, I use citric acid, safe, quick and cheap. Get the crystals from your pharmacist or grocer and make them up into a reasonable strong solution. Be aware that if you have iron or steel with copper alloys (eg brass) there will be a minor reaction and there will be future deposits of copper on brass.

 

1) – For successful soldering both parts need to be scrupulously clean and well fluxed before assembly.

2) – Do not overheat otherwise the flux will be ‘aged’ and not work.

3) – Put a scrap of solder in place before heating, when the flux ‘boils’, have a length of soft iron wire (florists wire) to push it back into place before it reaches melting point.

4) – Make sure that both parts are heated equally,

5) – if successful the solder will run into the joint by capillary action, it is a great feeling when it does.

 

Also, do not use too large a torch for such small parts, a ‘cooks torch’ will be sufficient for such a small job. Remember, solder will follow the heat.

 

This fabricated boiler tube was pickled in citric acid after soldering, dunked when still warm, not hot – 20 to 30 mins –

 

 

Best Regards

 

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 24/01/2012 22:03:53

[WolfieParticipant @wolfie]

I can’t pull it off by hand, but I wondered whether I should attack it with tools

Its not a blind hole and I think I can see silver around the stump, difficult to see though cos its a 1/16 hole inside a 3/32 hole!

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Looks like you’v done it Wolfie, A good place to get the citric acid crystals is your local home brew shop, its about as cheap as you can get, unlike the chemist shop. Ian S C

[John RutzenParticipant @johnrutzen76569]

hi, refractory bricks are ok for small jobs but to do a big job such as a boiler i have found that there is nothing better than ceramic fibre blanket which comes in 1 inch thick roll and you can buy it from pottery suppliers for around £2 a sq foot. You can get it on eBay as well but more expensive.

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