Shapers (obsolete or not)

[Mexican jonParticipant @mexicanjon]

Just a curious question really Is there much point to having a shaper these days I've got a Tom Senior universal mill with a slotting head attachment so my way of thinking is that a shaper would just take up space, that is unless someone can enlighten me.

Regards Jon

[Mexican jonParticipant @mexicanjon]

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Shapers are brilliant at holding a section of floor down until you can find a more useful machine.

John S.

[Terry LaneParticipant @terrylane]

Not at all! My Douglas gets almost as much use as either of the mills, and for some jobs is streets ahead of 'em.

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

The real question is, if you already have a decent mill is it worth spending any more money and why?

[_Paul_Participant @_paul_]

Posted by John Stevenson on 24/07/2012 08:26:31:

Shapers are brilliant at holding a section of floor down until you can find a more useful machine.

John S.

Do you still have one then John ?

To answer the OP yes they are worth having and not just to stop the floor flying away

• Cutting dovetails with lumps of cheap tool steel & not expensive dovetail cutters
• Seeing how far you can make the chips fly down the workshop
• Producing lovely flat surfaces using more lumps of cheap tooling
• The theraputic aspect just watching the thing work implacably away

I am a little biased tho I have five in total so I guess my floor is safe

Paul

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

I could buy an aweful lots of "expensive" dovetail cutters with one shaper and even more with five

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Not obsolete, but instead of picking up another shaper (had one but sold it when moving 1/2 way around the world) I got a CNC mill instead.

I'd love another shaper, but know that the mills will get the use.

I picked up a Worden cutter grinder to re-sharpen my end mills, and to accurately sharpen flycutter and lathe toolbits (for when carbide is not required)

So, in this case JohnS agrees with JohnS!

Another JohnS.

[_Paul_Participant @_paul_]

So if one isn't armed with the equipment & or ability to sharpen say for arguments sake a very expensive dovetail cutter what do you do with it?

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi There

Sharpen it up freehand and use it as a shaper tool?

regards david

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

I know a nice small commercial outfit which will sharpen them as and when required for a very reasonable sum.

[_Paul_Participant @_paul_]

So assuming our hypothetical dovetail cutter hasn't any chipped teeth and is suitable to sharpen what might that cost for say a 1" 60 degree item including carriage to mainland UK?

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Around £10 I would guess (now) + post, but then I usually drop them in along with other work and they are then sent back by post. New ones are £35

[_Paul_Participant @_paul_]

£10 does sound a very fair price for sharpening something with that many flights.

My cheapest (bought working) shaper is an Alba 1A cost me £70, include say £5 worth tool steel = £75

Your Dovetail cutter £35 and allow say around 2 sharpens? before it's done = £55

My math favours the Shaper

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

But I do not want a shaper in any shape or form, the workshop floor is concrete so that stays put on its own.

[mickParticipant @mick65121]

On the 8th day the lord made the shaper and saw that it was good.

There is no finer machine to produce a completely flat surface and with a swan necked shearing tool taking off no more than 0.005'' it gets pretty close to surface grinding, with the advantage of staying completely flat when released from the vice, which is not always the case when the magnetic chuck is realeased!!!!

If anybody has a small bench shaper in need of a good home please let me know

[_Paul_Participant @_paul_]

I had almost forgotten about the floor surely it's better to have a good weighty British Shaper holding it down rather than some lightweight import mill?

(Apologies to the OP for the hijack BTW)

OP

It's not all rosy in Shaper Land tho the old saying is "You can make anything on a Shaper except Money" it's probably true as setups certainly need more consideration and can be harder to achieve than the average mill if you see what I mean.

See if you can get someone to show you one working and perhaps even have a go yourself I am sure you will enjoy.

Regards

Paul

[Steve GarnettParticipant @stevegarnett62550]

Posted by Mexican jon on 24/07/2012 08:12:16:

Just a curious question really Is there much point to having a shaper these days

Good for oiling practice, for a start… and stress relief. And yeah, you can do most stuff on a mill and slotting attachment if you want – but having tried it both ways recently, I'd far rather cut dovetails on the shaper.

[NobbyParticipant @nobby]

Hi
I love my little Drummond hand shaper & I fit a grinding head on it for light grinding &Brilliant for slotting keyways in gears

Regards Nobby

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by KWIL on 24/07/2012 16:46:54:

the workshop floor is concrete so that stays put on its own.

.

Pray tell how you manage that ? Not seen my floor in 15 years.

Seriously everyone and his dog [ and next doors cat ] harps on about doing dovetails.

I have used shapers in industry and at home, had three over a period of time and never had need to do a dovetail on one in all that time.

It's only infernal dovetails anyway that's hard and needs a cutter, the external ones can be done on a horizontal mill with a 60 degree cutter usually in one pass and belt a big stick off at a time.

Owned a vertical slotter until a month or so ago then sold it on. Takes up too much floor space when a slotting head on the back of the bridgy wil do the same job and take up no extra room.

[_Paul_Participant @_paul_]

I recently made some "Aloris" type toolholders for the AXA toolpost on my old Boxford and had to do some "infernal" dovetails.

In fact nearly all the facets of these were cut on an Elloitt 10M.

Paul

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Paul,

I cheated when i did mine. I did them reversed so i only had to do two infernal ones and all the holders were just cut off an 18" slab that had been run down twice with a 60 degree side and face cutter on the horizontal. One pass either way. Currently have 43 holders between two lathes but could do with a few more to save swapping tools.

[_Paul_Participant @_paul_]

John

43 holders make my 15 or so look a bit sick I do like your design tho looks like it gives the same grip but easier holder construction.

My homemade ones are from chunks of unknown "scrapbinium" what material did you use any preference?

Paul

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

Well shapers are certainly obsolete in industry, they are too slow. For amateurs…well, we are not usually concerned about time so much, and cheap tooling can make up for any extra time taken. If you have the space a shaper can be handy thing to have. If you don't have a lot of space, a lathe and a vertical mill is probably a more versatile setup than a lathe and a shaper. But you won't get the finish that a shaper can give you from a vertical mill, unless you can afford a good CNC machine, and that will be rather more expensive than any shaper would be.

As far as the dovetails go, well, so far I have needed to do dovetails with 55 degree and 60 degree angles, so that would double the number of cutters needed. Wouldn't matter for production, where you are probably going to wear them out anyway, but for a one off it becomes a bit more questionable. I've also done T slots, although for some of those I do have the T slot cutter to fit the mill. They are a bit faster and less fiddly to do on a mill, but the shaper uses home made cutters which are certainly cheaper.

When I find that the nearest piece of scrap is a bit oversize for the job needed…well, there is nothing like a shaper for ripping a bit of stock down to size.

Shapers are good for work on stationary and marine type steam engines, where a lot of the work on the original would have been done on a planer. There is probably not so much work in a loco that a shaper would be useful for.

But after all, it is a hobby, I enjoy my old shapers. If you don't happen to like them, feel free to use something else. Someone local has a $50,000 CNC machine at home…I am sure I would enjoy that too, if I had that sort of money to throw around.

John

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Paul,

That design of mine was originally done in a smaller size for a ML7 years before cheap mports came out and I thought long and hard about it to make the production of the holders as easy as possibel given you only make one post but multiple holders.

The design was published in ME somewhere about 1987 but the design pre dates this by a while. The original is still alive and well and lives on Tony Jeffree's ML7 as he bought it from me.

My holders are just cold rolled steel as the design is based on a stock size, less machining. In fact only the dovetails, the tool slot / boring bar hole and clamp screw holes is all that is needed. As mentioned before the dovetails are milled in whist the holders are in an 18" long stick form on a horizontal mill, then sawn off.

Finla operation is to send them over the road to the heat treat plant and have them Tuftrided. It's a low temerature process, well low for heat treat, around 400 degrees but at this temperature you don't get any distorsion. This puts a hard black oxide coat on, only mirons thick but it's also rust resistant and stop the day to day dings and marks.

John S.

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