Recognising tooling quality levels?

[Ian MayburyParticipant @ianmaybury77488]

Hi all. I'm an occasional looker in with a primary focus in precision woodworking (boxes, small cabinets and the like) – but as a hands on engineer engineer have some background as a general machinist, in tool room management and in engineered product R&D.

Having started to gear up on the machining side one issue i'm running into is to separate the good from the not so good from the junk. Especially in the case of tooling.

Hard experience with junk Eastern stuff suggests the need for care (that quality can't be assumed), but against that limited budget.

So far i've bought an Axminster ZX 30M round column mill drill – bearing in mind that it's also to cover woodworking drilling and some slotting tasks where the pretty large work envelope is important. Lots of small assembly type problems, but actually not so bad in terms of alignments and tolerances. A smallish lathe may follow before too long.

What's bothering me is that there's perhaps half a dozen mainstream suppliers selling Eastern made tooling based on unsubstantiated claims – but there's very little tangible about to tell what's good, and what's not. Everything from milling cutters, to vices, turntables, drills, centres, parallels, angle plates etc.

Living in Ireland the option to visit suppliers is limited, and i'd rather not wait until the Autumn shows.

ER collets and holders and chucks are a case in point. There's lots that's not to any standard, some to DIN stds/specified tolerances and probably hardened but a lot more expensive.

It's in one way remarkable how accessible much of this stuff has got, but in another it's still expensive enought that it'd be better not to have to leaarn everything the hard way.

Can anybody offer any experience based recommendations/guidelines etc?

Why is it that there's very little explicit criticism of poor quality stuff on forums – despite there being a fair amount of junk out there?

Thanks, ian

[Ian MayburyParticipant @ianmaybury77488]

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

One reason you get few real complaints on forums, is that people are running scared of litigation. Another is that the magazines rely on advertising.

One answer might be to order the bits you need to the appropriate Standard (ISO, or DIN, or BS, etc). Then if the parts are not up to spec you can return them as not what you ordered.

Of course, things will be different in Ireland from the UK, but I'm sure you have some sort of Trading Standards rules. Or you might look closely at 'the well known on-line auction site' (and why no-one calls it by name I don't know). If you do, ask the supplier using the 'Ask a question' option – 'Does this device, component, etc comply fully with BS 1066 ? If not, please state where it fails to comply and why.'

Then all you will need is a fully kitted engineering inspection department, of course…

Cheers, Tim

Edited By Tim Stevens on 22/06/2015 16:29:11

[paul 1950Participant @paul1950]

you get what you pay for simples!

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Posted by Tim Stevens on 22/06/2015 16:28:20:

One answer might be to order the bits you need to the appropriate Standard (ISO, or DIN, or BS, etc). Then if the parts are not up to spec you can return them as not what you ordered.

Of course, things will be different in Ireland from the UK, but I'm sure you have some sort of Trading Standards rules. Or you might look closely at 'the well known on-line auction site' (and why no-one calls it by name I don't know). If you do, ask the supplier using the 'Ask a question' option – 'Does this device, component, etc comply fully with BS 1066 ? If not, please state where it fails to comply and why.'

Cheers, Tim

Edited By Tim Stevens on 22/06/2015 16:29:11

From my limited experience of asking such questions you will get a lot of blank stares and no answers.

Tony

[Rik ShawParticipant @rikshaw]

"Why is it that there's very little explicit criticism of poor quality stuff on forums – despite there being a fair amount of junk out there?"

Possibly because those that have purchased "cheap and cheerful" don't want to admit how awful some of it is. A good example would be cheap Asian tap and die sets made from carbon "steel". Much of this sort of offering are good only for using on soft materials – like cheese!

To be fair though, some of it is very acceptable especially for hobby use. I have a set of cheapish Asiatic ER25 collets for instance and I have no complaints as to their accuracy. I have a Chinese lathe which is a joke but a Chinese milling machine from the same supplier performs very adequately.

There is still a lot of top quality British and American made imperial kit about and I stock up whenever I can from auctions , car boots etc something I would highly recommend if you have the time.

I have heard from several that Chinese made hobby engineering machines which in many cases are of questionable quality could soon be a thing of the past. It seems (from what I am being told), that in the future they intend concentrating on quality rather than quantity. I suppose that means they will flush the sand from the castings before building the machines?

Rik

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Without paying for them it can be difficult to know what various standards actually mean. They also have a side effect. At one time things were often made as good as they could be. Standards are generally agreed and no one wants one that will be difficult to maintain, This touches on why some industries want to remain in the EU. They will still have input to what ever standards are of interest to them. The standards are derived via discussion and odd as it may sound this often results in them being looser than they need be.

There are questions a buyer can ask. Take collets. I understand that run out should be measure 50mm from the end of them not right at the jaws. Similarly the important aspect of a collet holder is it's axial alignment. Just how that is spec'd pass.

The worst aspect especially on small machines is the design. I had a small far east miller at one point. It was just about ok. The next iteration doubled the width of the table and left the rest alone. I doubt if that would be ok but the spec looks better. The same sort of thing has happened to lathes. Shorter head stocks and tail stocks to make the centre distances look better. People might find that the tail stock is so short that it's impossible to turn up to the end of work with a centre in it. i did try one Chinese lathe that turned out to be like that purely down to the centre distance being increased by 50mm from what it used to be. The head alignment was hopeless and add's stated hand scraped tail stock which it was but that didn't mean that the alignment was any good. It was nothing short of hopeless really. There was a fad some time ago where spindle run out was specified – at the nose, meaningless. Run out needs to be specified some distance from the end of the spindle and also via a between centre test bar. I also understand that unhardened bearings are generally used. Not too much of a problem when they wear out as it should be possible to fit hardened replacements. Not super precision though which will influence how accurately the lathe can turn. Short head stocks don't help with this aspect.

John

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[Jesse Hancock 1Participant @jessehancock1]

Well for what it's worth I bought a well known micro lathe a sort of add hock system enabling the user to make various tools lathe, mill etc.

It was not cheap costing more than my cheapo Chinese stuff by quite a deal. It was supposed to be all singing and dancing however when I tried it on mild steel I found I made more progress using a file. On castings I couldn't get it to go through the skin and once again I had to resort to a file to take off the skin.

In the hope of getting something for my money I use it on small stuff only now or more to the point I hardly use it at all. Therefore it's possible to purchase pedigree stuff and still waste money.

PS It works on aluminium and plastics at least.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I think we should be under no illusion that the machines and tooling that we buy from the suppliers who service the hobby market are built to a price and not the highest possible quality. What is remarkable is just how good this equipment is for the money. Most is fit for hobby purposes but may not have a long life in a production environment, but is is not aimed at that market. I think choosing your supplier carefully is important, they have a reputation to maintain and in turn choose their suppliers with care. People often post on this forum their good and bad experiences with suppliers. A realistic expectation of what you get for the price you pay must be adopted. If you pay £2000 for a lathe it will not be a Shaublin but it will be acceptably accurate and have a reasonable life in the hands of a hobbiest. There are many machine specific forums that will help in making a decision on future purchases. For small tooling I stick with suppliers who have served me well, this gives me peace of mind and rewards them with my loyalty.

Mike

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

My view is simple, most of the 'cheap' tooling available these days is both proportionately cheaper and better than what was available to the hobbyist 40 or 50 years ago.

That doesn't mean there aren't some really awful items out there but compare an Adept lathe of 1930 (equivalent to about £200 based on change in earnings, the best estimate of hobbyist buying power) with a C0 'Baby' lathe at £280 today. Quite simply the 'cheap' Chinese import is streets ahead in everything from accuracy to finish, let alone features – it evens comes with a motor

We have to accept that our expectations are high, and that can mean disappointment. Screwfix sell a set of 19 metric split-point titanium-nitride coated HSS drills for £6.99, 1-10mm. The equivalent Dormer set will set you back over £55.

Now the Dormer set could last a lifetime if treated with care, the Screwfix set is an unknown. But who can blame the beginner on a budget if they buy the cheaper option?

My own strategy is to use cheap kit to build my range of tools and tooling, and if it turns out to fall short of the mark, I either modify it to meet my needs or replace it with better gear as and when it fails.

My expectations of cheap kit are realistic, but, with some experience, I am also better able to judge both when I need something better and when the cheap stuff meets my needs.

My next 'big' purchase will be a milling vice, and like my last SC chuck, it will be a 'high-end budget' item, to replace a relatively cheap one, if that makes sense.

Neil

Edit to correct punctuation!

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 22/06/2015 19:28:32

[Ian MayburyParticipant @ianmaybury77488]

Thank you for the views guys, and keep it coming. Meant in the nicest possible way, but I guess the replies confirm the issue we all face. Perhaps the answer too – that short of buying higher dollar and standards based product there's not much way around the issue other than hands on familiarity with suppliers and their products. (experience)

Which is always a problem when suppliers are distant, and shipping costs significant. Seems like the plan must be to avoid rock bottom pricing, and to go for standards where possible – but avoiding the high end production quality stuff.

I should say that most of what i buy has to come from the UK, the US or Germany – the market here is tiny, and is industrial. We don't have the tradition of hobby engineering, and consequently it's extremely difficult to find knowledgeable individuals to talk to over a pint.

Guess i'd hoped somebody would pipe up and say that of the high profile hobby engineering supply places W is good, A is good, X is cheap and not so good etc. – but fear of liability has to be a concern. Maybe it's not that simple anyway.

It's a question of requirements. It's got to work properly, but it doesn't necessarily have to handle 8 hr shifts day in day out. Trouble is it's possible to get really burned. How about a long series brad point bit it was possible to bend by hand to tie a knot in without it breaking? The tip was randomly touched to a grinder – certainly not sharpened.

The ZX 30 is just up and running. The alignments are still to be checked out, but the spindle is decently accurate at around 0.0005in runout., and the tables seem (pending testing) decent. Everything works, it runs quite smoothly – but finishes are a little rough, materials probably a little soft and it was riddled with assembly errors and omissions. Fortunately nothing that wasn't fairly easily fixed. So far not a wonder, but pretty reasonable at the price point…

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

If used and not sharpened a set of Dormer drills wont last a lifetime Neil. The screwfix ones will work, may need a little bit of care to avoid breaking them and will need sharpening at some point just like any drills.

I have 4 boxes of drills. 3 of them I only use when really needed. One box gets used at all sizes. They are all still fairly sharp, a couple of fine ones broke in a hand drill, I replace them from a box of n of each size up to 2mm if I remember correctly bought off ebay. When I do this I mic them as the sizes are often a touch under. The 3 I use at times when I need a specific size are 1 to 6mm in 0.1 steps and a set of number and letter drills bought from Tracy tools a long time ago. The use all of the time set is 1 to 13 by 0.5mm tit' coated and bought at moderate cost from a local now closed diy tool types store. Taps can be a bit tricky – I have bought several drills singly for those. There is no need to buy drill sets to cover the range I have. I also have a set of blacksmith drills up to the usual 1in dia.

What to do when my use all the time set has had it's day ? I'd probably look at a similar set off screwfix or similar. There is too much trading on a name these days.

Comments on lathes earlier – I haven't visited one of the well known suppliers for about 12 years. At that point they were fully aware of the problems with them. Go back 20 odd years and small lathes tended to be a lot better in all respects and were still cheap. I was having a bad experience with a Viceroy at that point, too much bed wear really but worst of all impossible to adjust the bearings. Oddly I came across a college lecturer that had the same problem so sold the lathe while it was more or less still ok.

John

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[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

> If used and not sharpened a set of Dormer drills wont last a lifetime Neil. The screwfix ones will work, may need a little bit of care to avoid breaking them and will need sharpening at some point just like any drills.

When I said cared for, I included sharpening as part of the care programme! I have some excellent drills as 'best' and they really are good, but I have a couple of cheap HSS number/letter/fractional sets as these make sure I am never short of a drill in an awkward size. As the 'posh ones' slowly wear out, they will be resharpened as 4-facet as split point is a bit beyond my pay grade

My mini-lathe is 17 years old; those made and sold today are definitely more accurate, better finished and have numerous technical improvements. My understanding is that the biggest barrier to improvement is that the vast majority of machines are sold to the USA, and there just isn't the pressure for improvement coming from their big suppliers so our British suppliers have had to 'push the stone uphill' to get changes.

> We don't have the tradition of hobby engineering, and consequently it's extremely difficult to find knowledgeable individuals to talk to over a pint.

'twas not always thus. Edgar T. Westbury and his wife enjoyed a long holiday in Ireland enjoying the hospitality of several model engineers and seeing the work of many more.

> Maybe it's not that simple anyway.

It isn't. On the one hand some of the usual suppliers kit comes off the same production lines as the best of 'European' brands. Other items, like many lathes, all look superficially the same but vary in detail and standards of fit and finish (and customer service).

Most curious to me are some of the small machines that are available branded up as (e.g.) Draper and Sealey at very high prices compared to the ME trade, and yet appearing to be 'base spec' models. These seem to be aimed at small workshops and garages, rather than hobbyists.

The biggest thing, I think, is that the well-established suppliers to the hobby have good customer service and will endeavour to put things right if there's a problem, although their worst problem is when people expect Schaublin performance at SEIG price.

Neil

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Tim Stevens on 22/06/2015 16:28:20:

One answer might be to order the bits you need to the appropriate Standard (ISO, or DIN, or BS, etc). Then if the parts are not up to spec you can return them as not what you ordered.

Of course, things will be different in Ireland from the UK, but I'm sure you have some sort of Trading Standards rules. Or you might look closely at 'the well known on-line auction site' (and why no-one calls it by name I don't know). If you do, ask the supplier using the 'Ask a question' option – 'Does this device, component, etc comply fully with BS 1066 ? If not, please state where it fails to comply and why.'

Cheers, Tim

.

No need.

Go onto RS website and select a piece of equipped and chances are the same bit is available with test / calibration certificate to save you asking.

Problem is it 10 times more.

Didn't even realise there were British standards on quality of drills taps etc..

Mind you if you did want to make sure you could always shell out the £200 odd pounds to buy the standard so you can quote words and music.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by John W1 on 22/06/2015 17:49:39:

Without paying for them it can be difficult to know what various standards actually mean. They also have a side effect. At one time things were often made as good as they could be.

John

–

Standards only touch on certain things.

Take reamers for instance, pages and pages of tolerances as to what size hole they can product to plus or minus a gnats fart but nowhere does it say what hardness.

So you can make and sell a reamer to H7 tolerance made out of mild steel and it's within British Standard.

[Ian MayburyParticipant @ianmaybury77488]

There has to be a sprinkling of people around in ireland that are into engineering Neil, there's a club in Dublin and another in the North of ireland. Will do some digging.

One of the issues is that engineering manufacturing was never mainstream. It was gathering momentum quite nicely by the 70s, but of late much as in the UK everything is made in the East and most younger people are focused more towards high tech, farming, food, service business and the like.

Sounds like it's going to be a case of taking it steadily. The RS route is definitely a little on the rich side for me. They have even started refusing orders under €15 here, or had last time i looked…

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

RsComponents isn't a bad place to look to see what is likely to be close to or actual industrial standard. They can be good on price at times as well. For instance I needed a specific left hand metric tap. Finished up buying a boxed German made set that they sell. The cost of this compared with an industrial branded high spec tap was higher but they are good taps. Pity they don't do some dies at similar prices to go with them. Not connected but I bought 2 dies for them from Tracy tools, HSS and split. Not what they advertise generally but they do stock a lot of industrial grade items as well or will get them. Can't say I was happy with £20 each but I could have paid a lot more.

Relating to another thread RS sell Stanley vices. Steel is mentioned on some of them at least. The fact that they sell them as they do have a lot of industrial habitual customers is a good indication. They also sell RS branded ones – a bit ouch. Record too. If they did a drill set at a moderate price I would buy without any hesitation. They tend to sell off things that turn out to be iffy rather cheaply eg I have masses of adjustable voltage regulators, Chinese brand, spec is awful and the parts probably worse but they will do for what I need. I often get electronic bits of them or Farnel because of the amount of out of spec stuff that is around at times.

John

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[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

The up side of cheap tooling particularly in respect to drills is they protect your good stuff. If you have a cheap drill set you can use it with impunity for all the non-toolroom tasks around the house without sacrificing your good set. Same goes for wood chisels and anything else you may be temped to use for 'building and gradening' grade work. Treat the cheap stuff as throw away or almost single use and keep your good stuff for the workshop.

PS It's also handy for lending out.

Martin

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

I still scour the garage sales, boot sales, second hand shops etc and scoop up old tools and tooling in good condition. Stuff that was made in the UK, USA and Australia is usually pretty good quality and can be refurbished if worn etc.

I do buy some cheap eBay stuff but generally the quality is poor in both the finish and the grade of material used. But some of it is very good too. Bit of a lucky dip I spose.

Overall I would rather buy used good quality stuff than new Chinese. Some of the Indian and Taiwanese stuff seems to be of better quality though.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

'i'd rather not wait until the Autumn shows.' Could be a bad choice to make.

I've done a lot of comparing at shows and while you cant check runout if they didn't bring the machine you want.If they do, you can and it's all under one roof.

You can see the difference in finish quality, some have obvious machining errors and come in a box badly made of terrible wood. Then you look at something with Vertex or HBM written on it and you realise why they cost a few pounds more. The difference is night and day.

I've bought stuff from Rotagrip thats cheap Chinese and good, also RDG.

i've not used Arceuro, but they seem to care about the quality of their stock against it's cost.

i have a Nearok driil from the 80's that clatters like crazy as the spline is very poor indeed. You look at back issues of ME and theres usually someone on the letters page complaining of poor quality far east kit.

So ti's not a new issue either.

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

I think what you need to do is determine before hand what level of accuracy you wish to work to and the type of work you want to do. That will, to a large extent determine for you what price point you will be aiming at.

I work in a manufacturing company making specialist boxes for my day job and have a fair assessment of the quality of the work that goes on there. It's better than house building but not as good as instrument making… In most cases, +/- 1mm is perfectly adequate, though profile tolerances of 6mm have been deemed acceptable by our QA department at times. At home I work to much tighter requirements than we do at work. Sometimes, I'm aiming for an impractical level of accuracy, and need to back off, but generally try to get +/- 0.05mm, though +/- 0.1mm would be perfectly adequate in most cases. I need concentricity more than I need absolute accuracy.

So, with that level of accuracy in mind, and the job I need the equipment for is pen making, I have found all of the metalworking tooling available gives me good enough accuracy. A concentricity of 0.01mm is what I routinely get from my cheap as chips 'CTC Toolseller' ER 32 collets and chuck in the lathe (mine is the Warco version of the Clarke CL500M). That is adequate for my work. It may not be for your stuff, btw – I'd dearly love to admire your work if 0.01mm concentricity isn't good enough..

One of the most useful tools in the workshop for me (given that I mostly use plastics) is a thermometer. That allows me to calculate the dimensions that I should be working to for an item to be the right size at 20C. I get up to 1mm shrinkage on length of a pen if I want to machine it at -5C workshop temperature. It is remarkable to machine a pen in the cold, bring it in the house and see it's shorter than the one it 'matches', and half an hour later, they are the same size. [Not all pen making plastics are machinable at -5C, some are unmachinably brittle at below +8C] Sorry for the ramble – but if you are going to be particularly accurate, don't forget temperature effects.

Regards,

Richard.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I have a 1/4" RS branded drill that I have had since I was a kid. Sharpened a few times but still going strong. I think I pinched it off my dad

[steamdaveParticipant @steamdave]

Ian

Living in Ireland, you will have noticed the exorbitant postage rates from England. One possible way to get value for money, at least with postage costs is to buy directly from the Far East.

CTC Tools in Hong Kong is a reputable company. The MD is a Dane (or possibly German) who keeps a close eye on the quality control.
http://www.ctctools.biz/

I've heard good reports from Richon Tools, but have not had any dealings with them myself.
http://richontools.com/

Dave
The Emerald Isle

[Ian MayburyParticipant @ianmaybury77488]

I'd not anticipate working to very tight tolerances Richard (i have a snoopervisory cat too by the way), and suspect your 'work' scenario won't be far off. Not sure though – in that who knows where having light milling and maybe in a while turning capability will bring me. (it's anyway overlap hobby and commercial)

It's a little difficult to discuss the issues meaningfully at this very general level. My perception though is that first off the ZX30M isn't a high precision machine anyway – although i've been pleasantly surprised at the moderate runout in the spindle. (bit over half a thou)

On tooling my big concern relates to ability to get the job done at all – so much of the eastern made woodworking stuff just doesn't work. (say it's quality D) Brad point drills or Forstner bits are a simple case in point. They can be so bad that they flat don't cut at all or only intermittently or with tearing – because the grinding of the cutting edges is way off. Made from material so soft that the tool will be destroyed in minutes if used.

Next up might be stuff that's fairly functional (say C), but the quality just isn't in the material and the fineness in the sharpening for them to cut really well – or last long. i've had a big box of twist drills in this space (good box store quality perhaps) – they drill quite nicely in softer materials, but a bit of abuse by way of speed or a bit of slightly tougher material wipes the edge off immediately. Good quality hardened and ground HSS stuff not only cuts much better than this – it handles and feels different too. The steel rings rather than producing a dull clink when tapped on a surface.

Going up again to something like Famag HSS-G brad points or Forstners (say B) costs maybe x5 or even x10 compared to box store/budget, but the brads for example are incredibly finely finished, obviously hard as nails and so sharp as to need careful handling to avoid cut fingers. They will cut a circle one ply thick out of the top layer on cheap ply without even a hint of tearing, and have been working regulary for several years now and are still very sharp. Leitz saw blades for example (not their budget ones, but a grade or two up -finer carbide) are also in this sort of territory, and have an excellent sharpening service.

It's hard to generalise, but for sure there's stuff above this again. (say A) Much more expensive. Perhaps using carbides, superabrasives etc to give production type longevity, but likely getting specialised enough that it requires a powerful machine tool set up to appropriate depths of cut etc to get the best out of it. Probably not suited to general/jobbing work.

I seem to find myself always needing to buy high end jobbing stuff capable of working to the required standard (i'm very picky), but not necessarily with production longevity – probably quality B, getting by on minimum C in a few less demanding situations. i.e. I'll tolerate needing to take it a bit slower sometimes, but will accept no compromise in terms of ability to work to the highest std. (doesn't stop me screwing up)

Please pardon all the palaver – the problem is the need to often buy mail order unseen off websites and the like. I agree 100% Dave that given the time and the opportunity to handle most of the options at shows that the differences would (mostly) be apparent. Buying at auctions and the like can clearly work too (not many here though), but it's time consuming.

To pitch a very basic calibration question. There's outfits all over the place catering to hobby machinists and the like – people like RDG, Warco, ARC, Axminster, Chronos etc. My impression is that they do cost effective stuff. They often have price point options within their ranges – it's possible to pay x2 or x3 for a name branded machine vise for example. Still not expensive compared to a big brand industrial model – go to even a volume industrial tooling outfit like MSC and it's possible to spend a lot more..

Guess i'm wondering if the better/more expensive end tooling and accessories done by hobby/light professional oriented companies like those i've listed makes it to quality level B, or maybe high C as above?

ian

[Ian MayburyParticipant @ianmaybury77488]

PS Thanks for the Eastern options Dave. Mailing costs are a b*** from the UK. Will do some checking out.

I've been buying woodworking tools direct from Japan (also some from Germany), and find it costs less to ship than from the UK in either case. Prices can be very good too – savings of maybe 50% compared to UK.

ian

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