Problem steaming up

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Speaking as one with no experience of steaming a loco, if all you can get is 15 psi any gross steam or water leak should be quite visible.

is it possible that the blower orifice is too large and all your steam is going straight up the chimney?

Neil

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

I'm sure its got to be in that region Neil, the boiler is obviously making steam and plenty of it, It's just not keeping it in.

BUT if as Ron says the blower and regulator are shut, where can the steam be coming from?

Logic dictates that if all avenues for the steam to escape are covered, then pressure must rise.

So, if with a good fire and all valves shut, pressure is not being seen there must be a hefty leak from somewhere else.

Could there be a Stay cap / nut missing / loose (hollow Stay? – not familiar with this boiler) this would show up on the pressure test.

There does look like there is a fair amount of what looks like soft solder on various joints – could these have blown, unlikely as it again has passed a test and any excessive smokebox pressure is likely to be forced back into the firebox (blower off), and Ron says its ok on air.

Could it be that the steam blower is not actually shut? wouldn't have thought that that would have caused a drastic failure in pressure rise, part of the steam test is to run at max blower and check that the safetys can cope with the steam produced.

Could it be a broken or incorrectly reading pressure gauge ( I see no test markings) but if the gauge was out the safety would have shown some action.

Ron, any chance of a bit of video in the smokebox when its up and running? I agree with Neil that a blower venting to excess would give the problems described had you not already stated that all valves were shut.

Then again, is the blower valve actually shut, and that the valve handle isn't just spinning on the spindle with the valve stuck wide open?

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Ron also says that "As soon as i take the Blower of fire goes out." before he says the never opened it.. Unless he means the electric blower?

I am a little confused.

Perhaps there's a leak inside the firebox? Is it superheated and the superheater's got a leak?

Neil

[Halton TankParticipant @haltontank]

One area no one has mentioned and sometimes overlooked, is that fire needs air, check that your ashpan is not blocked up, are there air holes in your ash pan.

Another area mabe that your one or more clacks are blowing by, injector clacks will be obvious but check your hand and axle pump clacks by seeing if major issue of steam in the water tanks.

If non of above, then I would do a quick hydraulic test by filling your boiler completely with water and then pumping with hand pump see if you can get upto working pressure, or find if you got a major leak.

Failing all above, then I would go to your club and steam up, chances others eyes will spot the problem.

Reagrds Luigi

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Forgot to say i am no longer getting any water out the chimney on last two firings

[colin hawesParticipant @colinhawes85982]

If the leak is only apparent when its hot I would look very closely for a hairline crack in a firetube.It could perhaps be held closed by a crushing force when under cold hydraulic test pressure but expansion with heat opening and drying it so it's not so obvious. Colin

[61962Participant @61962]

Ron,

Well, there's a modicum of success from gunging up the smokebox, we've now got 15 psi instead of 10 – that's plus 50%.

So where's the water going? I thought the smoke coming out of the chimney was just smoke from the charcoal, but I suspect now that it must have a lot of steam in it, so I think you should be looking at the steam pipes in the smokebox. The possibilities are limited. Check any unions in the steam pipes are actually tight. I think you must take a look at your new superheater and make sure you have done a good job with the joints. If the regulator is as you say leaking only very slightly then I would take a look at the joint where the main steam pipe comes through the tube plate. There could be a leak directly from the boiler. One thing you could do is to put a blanking disc in the main steam pipe joints to prevent the steam from going to the cylinders. If steam is still escaping into the smokebox that narrows things down.

I'm bemused by your apparent surprise that the fire went out when you removed the electric blower. Of course it went out, there's no natural draught. I'd have turned on the steam blower and got to work with the hand pump to see if I could get some more water into the boiler and I'd have been pushing more charcoal in to keep the fire bright. It's possible to bring a hot boiler round with charcoal and it's own blower from virtually no pressure at all.

For your sake I hope Colin is wrong. Difficult repair if he's not. Halton Tank has a point. A quick hydraulic test would reveal any leaks but I would blank the cylinders off to do that. I doubt the clacks are blowing back into the tanks, Steam into cold water makes a lot of noise. You'd have noticed.

Keep trying. You will find the answer, and you'll be learning a lot about boiler management.

Eddie

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

Adding to what Luigi said, could the grate be the problem?

The fire to me looks a bit dull and not getting enough air.

If built to LBSC design, there should be no problem getting pressure up.

Geoff – Back pain saga continues

[stan pearson 1Participant @stanpearson1]

Hi Ron

I think you are going round in circles ! you will have to start at the begging undo the feed pipes to the cylinders and fit blanking plugs, remove one of the safety valves and fit an air line be careful and pressurise the boiler and see if the gauge goes up, if it does lower air pressure and remove one of the plugs re pressurise and see if air leaks out with regulator shut.

Regards

Stan

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

i dont agree with stan.

ron has tried a few times to steam up his lovely and rare P.V. Baker loco and usually a new sticky regulator will cure itself in such tests. if you look closely at ron's first youtube clip, the fire is burning brightly and exactly as i would expect. that rules out smokebox leaks or ashpan problems in my book

also note that ron is steaming up the loco 'indoors' so to speak, so that any boiler leaks will be apparent from the firebox end, and any accumulated water in the smokebox also apparent on disposal.

there are various ways to test the regulator. my personal view is that the regulator steam pipe between regulator and smokebox is leaking or else the internal blower pipe in the boiler. both are easily tested by filling the boiler just above same then pressurising the boiler with air. it isnt necessary at this stage to blank off the steam pipe to the cylinders.

i dont think there is a steam leak in the smokebox. nor do i think there is a problem with the superheater.

however such personal opinions are qualified by lack of personal inspection when knowing what to look for and listening are very important. ron has done the right thing by submitting same to the experts at his local club and hopefully all will be apparent very soon plus the solution. in the mean time speculation is probably pointless!

what is important is that ron gets his loco sorted with the help of his local club and we can see a rare P.V. Baker perform as it should very soon!

cheers,

julian

[LordedmondParticipant @lordedmond]

I would say the blast nozzle is to big

I built a William and the small nozzle came out and left a 3/32 hole it would not get up to pressure nor would i ever lift the safety .

If you have been to a talk by Gordon Smith he demonstrate just how small a hole you need to prevent his test boiler getting up to pressure if my memory seves me right it was about 1 mm

good luck

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Todays update if your not fed up I stripped down smoke Box found one copper pipe leasing going to Exhaust nut had split.

Redid it resealed ready to try again.

Put fire in it was better got to 15 no Problem so decided to help the fire.

I used air line blowing into Bottom Fire grate.

I was able to Take Electric Blower of and use ordinary Blower worked very well got 60 PSI wow.

I then put into Low gear and opened the regulator pressure just died so do you think its regulator or another problem

Ron

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Ron – Try just getting used to firing, without bothering about running. Get the pressure up to safety blowing off time, put water in by hand, hear how the blower picks up as pressure rises (and, drops off as pressure falls).

Literally, spend hours getting it so that you can control the fire, and put water in, and just get the hang of it.

Does taking off the Ashpan (if you can do that, without dropping the fire) help things? What happens when you close the blower, does the pressure and water fall quickly? When you pump in water by hand, does the clack valve on the boiler cool? If you open the pump bypass, does hot water get dumped back into the tanks?

Lots of questions, and lots of things to work out if they are operating properly.

Then, step 2, try running the engine part of the locomotive.

With my little Tich, it took quite a few firings to figure out how to fire. First few sessions were NOT a success. With time, I know how to fire Tich, which is "interesting" as it is a small locomotive, and pressure can drop quickly.

When you do run the locomotive at the track, and you get around the track (!) the feeling of accomplishment is fantastic. You are almost there – just a bit more to learn and experiment with.

Another JohnS

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Been to new club today and they where really nice chaps.

Several suggested i change my Regulator for a screw type using a whitworth left hand thread.

I have no Idea how to mAke one does anyone know who could make one at a reasonable price please.

I have now stripped engine down again checked for leaks tried pipe to Blower thats fine had as good look as i could down fire tubes with a torch all look good.

The only part that seems to be suspicious it the super heater that is letting air through when closed not a lot but leaking.

I pressure tested Super heater on air thats has no leaks.

Checked all over and still cant see any thing Smoke Box seems to have sealed nicely.

Fire cement round tubes at bottom of smoke box look well sealed.

Every thing looks hinky doorey so unless Regulator then i don't know what.

Ron

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Sorry i have said super heater its not its the Regulator shows how its getting to me.

I am now looking for a firm or some one who knows how to make a screw type regulator i have never seen one but guys at new club said much better than the one i have.

Can anyone Please suggest any one who could make one for me please

Ron

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Well still trying to sort this flipping Regulator out i decided to make the cheese out of Brass as it might have been the stainless cheese not matching the other brass one.

Tried getting flat by using 1000 wet and Dry using a figure of 8.

When regulator is closed and i blow through it still leaks.

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Haven’t seen the YouTube but pics of engine in your photo album show an engine which is not a standard build PV Baker .

Causes of problems could be legion but some not so far mentioned :

(1)Standard LBSC regulator in dome has steam pipe which is notoriously difficult to make steam tight at both ends .

Leak at regulator end means steam by-passes regulator and goes straight to cylinders .

Leak at s/b end is a bad steam waster .

(2)Safety valves not screwed down .

If randomely set to a low blow off boiler pressure will never rise and since there is not much pressure there is not always much visible steam even though it is actually escaping freely – easily overlooked .

(3) Blower working but not set at correct position and attack angle relative to chimney – could just be uselessly venting steam without drawing fire .

Lots more possibilities !

Regards ,

Michael Williams

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Well had a busy two Days i have remade Regulator taking great care.

I have seated the cheeses with Brasso but still leaking a little but surface looks lovely and polished.

I have made them out of Brass this time and copper pipe.

I am sealing all the joints threads with Yamaha bond takes heat and great at sealing.

Well hope so at £29 a tube he he.

Made new Gaskets and again used Yamaha bond to make sure its well sealed.

The Smoke Box end made a new fitting to screw into boiler again used sealer.

Just got to fit the super heater so have to drill and tap holes to fit tight.

Will use new Gasket and sealer again.

checking everything as i go along making sure i am checking everything everyone has told me.

Club day tomorrow but don't think it will be finished in time to to take tomorrow

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Old regulator

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

New cheese polished with Brasso on glass

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

New regulator still letting a little air through when blowing in it.

Just hope it will work when on engine in steam

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Flipping heck its 5 to 1 am just finished putting engine back together tried steaming up still the same.

Glad i am going to club tomorrow at least i can take it so they can have a look.

So many things this week i have tried to make it better but still failing.

My hat goes of to you Engineers who make these i feel stupid.

Going to hopefully try pressure test tomorrow just need to know where to look now.

I thought putting in a 17 hour day taking my time checking everything i new how to would finally give me hope it did no Hope

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Hi well just befor going to steam club i have tried running on air and it will not today.

I have tried blanking pipe below chimney as suggested but on air loads still coming up from the Chimney should it do this with it blanked of as i thought it would seal it !!!

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Hi Ron ,

If no better results from present actions need to do some real detective work .

Several stages but first is to eliminate leaks in boiler itself .

Ideally boiler off engine and all fittings left in place .

Immerse in bath of water with slight Fairy liquid addition .

Put low pressure air into boiler and examine all areas of boiler for escaping air – as shown by bubbles .

Don’t forget to look underneath and in firebox .

Do same for superheater separately if it can’t readily be seen inside boiler .

Either boiler is tight and move on to other test or problem will become obvious .

Second is to test working chassis etc without boiler on air – quite simple it either goes or it doesn’t . Either way any problems will be obvious .

Regards ,

Michael Williams .

Edited By MICHAEL WILLIAMS on 16/04/2014 10:31:32

Edited By MICHAEL WILLIAMS on 16/04/2014 10:33:06

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Wow finally getting some where several said super heater they where right i had one Made in stainless it was leaking from that.

As soon as Pressure tested it showed up.

Just took it and had rewelded after a Guy at the club reset it to fit better.

I must say i had a lot of help from here very great full.

But the Help at the Rugely Power station was amazing not what i had expected.

If i had this advice alone at the Birmingham club it would have been running last year.

Not only did they pressure tested it but helped strip it down to re pressure test whilst it was apart they checked Regulator and several other things,

Whilst one was having a look another said to come and try the Track what a fabulous track.

Its about 3/4 long so surprised its has many twists and turns,

And every one was like your best friend nothing to much trouble.

If any one is looking round midlands for a club recommend getting in touch you will be amazed how friendly and Helpful all for £40 a year.including membership to club house.

Well weekend will try and Finnish it to run this Sunday will post if i am successful.

Thanks again for all your help

Ron

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