Open thoughts

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by John McNamara on 18/01/2014 01:04:50:

You have to wonder how the design of a building, almost certainly by a committee, could be so badly thought through.

Hmm… "committee" – I think that says it all

Russell.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

I'm keeping out of this one. I can relate horror stories from both camps and it's a discussion that no one can win.

What I will say is this and this is one of the nicest and most knowledgeable people I know holds about 4 doctorates and one of the apprentices we had at the garage left us still not able to read and write because I had to fill a advert slip in from the back of Tit-Bits, remember that ? so he could buy his girlfriend an engagement ring.

He now runs and owns one of the largest haulage, sorry logistics, companies in the UK.

That's it from me on this one.

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

I offer two thoughts

Noah built the ark apparently to some one elses design but with no prior experience

An experienced engineer designed the Titanic , it was built by time served craftsmen

(It has been argued that accountants then ruined it by cutting corners but there you go)

Now the other thought is that the titanic was not the engineering disaster of popular myth ..it took a massive hit ( completely unprecedented )
..it sank over a quite sufficient time to allow all to escape to life boats if they weren’t looked below decks and if sufficient spaces were provided and if class/culture had allowed better use of those available. .
In short yes a disaster but not of engineering in origin

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by MICHAEL WILLIAMS on 17/01/2014 23:06:07:

I think that the modern type of engineering education is so rigid that it completely stifles original thought .

You have a good point there Michael.

When I did my engineering degree in the 1960's it was a "thick sandwich" course which consisted of three years at university and a year in industry between the second and third years. The exam questions were not a matter of regurgitating facts learned by rote but involved problem solving using those facts. There was also a practical project that was marked alongside the final exams.

Now there are so many more universities that the entry standards have dropped such that four years are needed just to teach the academic work and the practical applications seem to go by the board – or am I just becoming a cynical grumpy old man?

Things are a bit different over here with the Ecoles d'Ingéneur where the courses are five years after BAC (A-levels) and include long industrial placements.

Russell.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Gentlemen,

Where I served my Apprenticeship and worked for sixteen years my father was an engineering draughtman, he was given a university apprentice to mentor during him term break, my father was given a special bolt to draw as it had snapped and needed remaking, the bolt had been taped together in a tee shape so as not to loose the parts, my father decided the apprentice could do this as a project and when the lad had finished the drawing he asked my father to check his work, what my father found was a perfect drawing with everything in place to make the bolt apart from the fact that it had been drawn exactly as the lad had been given it, taped together in the shape of a tee. He was known throughout the factory as being so clever he was thick as he couldnt see the wood for the tree's.

Martin P

[Andrew EvansParticipant @andrewevans67134]

Another point to bear in mind is a persons background, in this country up until fairly recently many people didn't have the chance to go to university, no matter how bright they were. Nowadays everyone has the chance to go, no matter how thick they are – keeps the youth unemployment numbers down – result is that some people come out of universities with a degree that is in reality worthless which is a crying shame.

i think some aspects of engineering need a formal education while others don't necessarily – it would be hard for someone leaving school at 16 with no qualifications to become a successful plant biotechnology engineer but potentially they could become a mechanical (teach yourself in your garage) or computer engineer (teach yourself in your bedroom) or get stuck in as an apprentice and work your way up.

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Martin ..I have seen that too.
Also saw a broken plane casting taken in to be repaired…job returned..oh that’s nice. .can’t hardly see the weld…sorry mate couldn’t weld it we copyied it and sparked it out of solid…
The had copied it down to the sand marks off the casting. .including chips in the face of the plane…not daft but smart ar (*.

[colin hawesParticipant @colinhawes85982]

Much engineering data was and still is obtained by testing making test pieces of materials then testing to destruction and finding the maths to suit results. So somebody needed the skill to make these parts before academics could do anything with them. Whether an academic or a machinist all engineers are contributing to the final resultant. I don't consider my engineering HNC any better or worse than the accumulated practical skills of the people that worked to build the things I designed and I always treated them as equals. Colin

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

Oh My

The typo gremlin is alive and well

Dianne Broddy is incorrect

It should be spelt Dianne Boddy.

Regards
John

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

(1) One thing that has considerable influence on the quality of work done at a particular establishment is the collective or hive effect :

Having a sufficient nucleus of good people raises the standard of all .

Having an insufficient nucleus of good people has opposite effect and everything degenerates .

Sometimes whole ethos of a place can depend on one pivotal good/bad person in the right/wrong place – but more usually depends on more general effect of several people .

So I would say that apart from a few hopeless cases being ‘good’ or ‘bad’ as an engineer can often depend on environment as much as an individuals actual abilities .

(2) Akin to the above but not the same is the matrix effect where flow of new ideas and old experience between a group of varied people can have results which no individual could probably achieve .

Sometimes it is a soft flow – a bit here and a bit there over time .

Sometimes it is a sparkling coming together of inputs which can last only a few minutes ( sometimes seconds)and yet which yields a complete solution to an existing problem or , just sometimes , a completely ground breaking new idea .

To experience one of those sparkling events just once is quite an experience but I was fortunate to spend my early years in a place where they happened regularly .

(3) A bad engineer does not always have to stay that way . A bit of a push to do better , a stimulating task to be involved with , a bit of on the job training – doesn’t work every time but always worth a try .

(4) Not quite on the original topic but related :

I’ve always believed that young people should be given one good chance in life .

For me this means that they have an opportunity to experience something different for a couple of years .

This could be directly educational – like going away to college – but for many young people I mean things like :

Travel , Armed Forces , voluntary work or a years work experience somewhere away from home ,

On a shorter time scale there were once the Outward Bound schools where young people of 14 to 16 went for courses of several weeks to basically just experience something different to their normal lives but always including a healthy lifestyle , experience of achieving , team work and lots of sport – especially marine sports like sailing and rowing .

None of this is fashionable now but I think it all still has great merit .

MikeW

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi Julian

I thionk Cherry Hinds Hill is a fully qualified engineer.

I believe her family owned a farm machinery or similar type of business.

Perhaps someone knows for sure.

regards David

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

RJW,

As a bricklayer I have seen some crackers in my time ,but NOTHING even remotely close to those.

surely some must have been done for a laugh, but believe me "you never know" the mind boggles!!

Raymond.

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Raymond..I too wondered how much photoshop and so forth..also what kind of builder would build some of those regardless of plans……so funny yes..convincing no.
I have seen some corkers in things like the bridge one but it beggers belief that it wasn’t noticed earlier….
But Nasa managed some sort of ( according to myth) units error which resulted in amulti million ( billion ? ) $ space vechicle reaching mars at a much higher velocity than expected…think the impact crater is still there.

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

No myth… **LINK**

A little more subtle than inches for millimetres, but not much!

Neil

[RJWParticipant @rjw]

Raymond, no idea if they were photoshopped or for real, I stumbled across them when i made the deadly mistake of clicking a link one of the other guys posted up in his reply, but it gave me a damn good laugh as well as chucking away a bit of time clicking other links, I ended up somewhere on UTube perusing stonking big ship engines ………… the wonders of the web eh

John

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

A good many years ago in the company library I found a report by the US Navy on the causes of a submarine sinking.

You really couldn't make it up and all of the evidence was amassed in the usual ponderous way with an accident report of this kind.

Briefly, two crews were sent aboard the submarine, tied up in the dry dock and tasked with carrying out trim trials, which as you probably know, involves the flooding or pumping of tanks fore and aft to hold a level boat.

Trials progressed until they collectively managed to sink the boat in the dock! Neither crew was aware of the presence of the other and they could therefore only flood the tanks accordingly as the boat level altered.

Brian

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

For those interested, the whole sorry tale can be found by Googling

'The sinking of USS Guilarro' which gives the whole enquiry report from the US Navy Department

Brian

[Rik ShawParticipant @rikshaw]

Mike W – you really stirred the broth when you started this thread. Huff, chuff and puff – at least it sounds like a steam engine!

Rik

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

I call my self an Electrical engineer, because I passed an OND in Electrical engineering. OND/HND and ONC/ HNC tend to be taken as part of an apprenticeship style training in an engineering discipline. In other words, they tend to be based on the practice of a skill, as well as theory. Degrees tend to be academic, ie, based solely on theory and rules "laws" etc. The practical approach seems to produce a more rounded "engineer" who can cope with a wider variety of problems . The Phd without practical experience is of purely "academic" value. It is however the fault of the training, not the man! In the UK today we have more graduates asking "do you want fries with that" than working in the areas they were trained for. Whatever good engineers are, you ignore them at your peril!

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Well I’m a graduate in electronic engineering. .and on my degree course. .some practical was required as it was put this is an ENGINEERING degree first..
We also did tech drawing, workshop practice, business environment. . ( “or why your project got canceled” )
..and at my first job after graduation. .was introduced to the “bench” .. the production staff..” these are the guys that make your ideas look good “.
Maybe there is more a question of good/bad narrow/wide education than origin of that education.

[Anonymous]

Well, this has been a pretty dispiriting thread. It would be interesting to know how many forum members have a degree, and of those how many are engineering degrees. I also wonder how many forum members, if any, have a Ph.D?

Regards,

Andrew

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Ph.D ?

Piled High and Deep ?

[Rik ShawParticipant @rikshaw]

There you are chaps – Andrew Johnston has thrown down the academic gauntlet – I have an "A" in English Literature – beat that if you will !

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi,

Ph.D? is that a Planishing hammer & Dolly?

I do things to a certain degree in engineering, if that counts.

Seriously though I 've only got as high as a few C & G's (nothing to do with cows or goats, or baby powdered milk) but I think I've forgotten more than I've learnt.

Regards Nick.

[Andrew EvansParticipant @andrewevans67134]

Ph.Ds are about research, not training for anything – and can be very practical in nature

[Author]

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