New mill user, what do I need to start.

[Robert Bowen-CattryParticipant @robertbowen-cattry70600]

Many thanks again for all the advice chaps, I’m starting to out a shopping list together with Arc. 🙂

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Careful, you could end up wanting all this before you know it!

[Robert Bowen-CattryParticipant @robertbowen-cattry70600]

No doubt, online shopping is a hobby. 🙂

 

Jason, you recommended the Arc radial vice which seems like a good choice, I’m torn between a 3″ and 4″. Having the extra real estate seems to make more sense, but somewhat concerned it will be too big for the mill. I’d appreciate your thoughts.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

There are a couple of issues with big vices on small mills.

 

If bolted to the middle tee slot the fixed jaw ends up quite a distance back which can mean you run out of forward Y axis movement when wanting to clear a large diameter cutter such as a facemill of flycutter.

If you use the front tee slot to avoid this it means there is a lot of weight hanging off the front of the table that can affect front/back tram a sthe table gets tilted up at the rear.

In either case you have a lot of vice overhanging the Y axis handwheel which can make it harder to read  the dial. Though that can be used as an excuse to bring forward the fitting of a DRO

Al lot is going to depend on the sort of work you intend to do but if you are going to be doing a lot of work that actually needs the capacity of a 4″ vice then the small mill may not suit.

Here are a few images to show how the various vices fit on a SX2.7 which does have a smaller table, you may actually get away with the 100mm as I was thinking your WM18 was a bit smaller.

I’ll take a couple mor ephotos a bit later of them on my larger X3 and without the swivel bases fitted.

 

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

The larger vice is larger in all directions including more overhang at the rear of the table and you loose nearly an inch of daylight under the quill.

Figures for the versatile vice below
(Vice Only)
Length
252mm
330mm

Width
118mm
161mm

Height
73mm
92mm

 

[Robert Bowen-CattryParticipant @robertbowen-cattry70600]

Thanks guys. 🙂

A picture tells a thousand words. Seeing the additional size of the 4″, I will be going with a 3″. 😀

Having said that, I note they sell the Versatile SG in 100mm and Precision Type 2 in 90mm, both of which have slots in the side for clamping, presumably allowing them more flexibility. Decisions decisions.

Now I have to chose some cutters. So confused about 2 flute, 3 flute and 4 flute. Will most likely be machining brass, ali and steel, will the 3 flute cutters handle all those, or do I still need some for soft material and some for steel?

Difficult all this isn’t it. 🙂

[VicParticipant @vic]

I was short of cash when I got my first mill so I just bought a few finger collets to get me started. Surprising what you can do with just the basics. I also looked at clamping sets but luckily didn’t buy one as, as time went on I realised I would never have used most of the elements. I’ve made up my own “clamping set” as I’ve gone along. Maybe it’s just me but commercial T nuts never seem to have fit my machines very well, so once again I’ve made my own. When I had the cash I bought an ER32 collet Chuck for the mill which has proved to be very useful. It shares collets with my ER32 lathe chuck, collet blocks and Spin Indexer. Good luck with your milling journey! 🙂

[Robert Bowen-CattryParticipant @robertbowen-cattry70600]

Cheers Vic.

I’ve pretty much decided to go with ER25 collets based on advice in this thread, but the MT3 taper is the same as my lathe if I ever decide to get a collet chuck for that.

Good advice about the clamping set as that was something I was considering getting.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Hold on

I’ve just put the two onto my X3 which has  a smaller table than the WM18 and think you can fit the 100mm OK

The paper has the 210mm width of the WM18 marked onto it so overhang is not too bad. If you are really worried then the Iron 100mm does not have the lip around the edge so has a smaller footprint for the same sort of capacity

I’ve drawn out the footprint of the two vices that you can print and put onto your mill to get a feeling for what it will be like, they will print full size at A4 but the 100mm will need two pieces of paper taped together. PDF here

 

[jaCK HobsonParticipant @jackhobson50760]

Being able to plunge cut is useful in many situations e.g. drilling on uneven surfaces. 4 flute can’t do that.

3 flute isn’t good for trench milling a slot if the intention is it should turn out the same width as the cutter. My first milling job was to mill a 10mm slot in my myford cross slide for hidden dro. The slot turned out wider than 10mm – not a real problem… But it also turned out much deeper as I hadn’t tightened up the collet enough and the cutter showed the down side of being able to plunge cut. Don’t practice on expensive materials!

Vice placement on table can be important when you working at limits. The SG versatile vice allows more flexibility but the std one with fixed bolt placement is easier/neater to just bolt down. The SG does allow you to bolt it at angle for those occasional times you wish you had the rotating base – maybe with less loss of working height? I Got the SG only so can’t comment on the rotating base version. I use the ‘versatile’ feature a few times –  being able to move the jaws around for large workpiece.

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

3 flute are good all rounders and will do to get you going, they are what I use 90% of the time.

Modern 4-flute “centre cutting” cutters are quite happy to plunge cut unlike the old typically threaded shank ones that can’t plunge.

Ideally non ferrous metals want uncoated particularly aluminium as the coating can increase the risk of metal sticking to the cutting edges but if you lubricate with paraffin or WD40 that reduces the chances.

So depending on budget just get 3-flute coated to start with or if you have a bit more to spend get a couple of the aluminium specific cutters and keep those for use on all the non ferrous materials. Depending where you buy these may be 2 or 3 flute as they tend to have less flutes which allows them to clear the larger volume of swarf more easily.

Couple of videos that are to co with an upcoming MEW article. Steel and iron are being cut with 3-flute coated, aluminium and brass with 2-flute uncoated “aluminium” specific cutters

 

PS you can clamp the Versatile to the table at any angle just like you can an Sg, infact it is easier as it has that handy lip all round to put the clamps on.

[Robert Bowen-CattryParticipant @robertbowen-cattry70600]

Thanks again guys, I’m learning so much here. 🙂

 

Jason, my mill is the WM16, not 18, so slightly smaller table. Width is 180mm. Thanks for the templates, they will definitely help me visualise, although at this stage I’m leaning back to your original suggestion of the 80mm versatile. At £45 it’s not much of a loss if I decide to get something later, and I guess a 2nd vice never hurts.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Ah that is about the same as my X3 @170mm wide, couple more shots of the two on that

 

[Robert Bowen-CattryParticipant @robertbowen-cattry70600]

Yep, confirms my initial thought, the 80mm seems a better fit for me. Cheers Jason.

[Robert Bowen-Cattry]

On Robert Bowen-Cattry Said:

Cheers Vic.

I’ve pretty much decided to go with ER25 collets based on advice in this thread, but the MT3 taper is the same as my lathe if I ever decide to get a collet chuck for that.

Good advice about the clamping set as that was something I was considering getting.

I would seriously rethink buying ER25. There are far more things that take ER32 collets. They normally only go up to 20mm capacity but you can get oversize collets up to 1”, so very handy. I would also advise getting a proper lathe chuck with ER32 so you can pass stock through it. I got this one:

https://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/ER-Lathe-Collet-Chucks/ER32-Lathe-Collet-Chucks

 

[VicParticipant @vic]

This is the spin indexer I got for my mill, it takes ER32 collets and has come in very handy.

https://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/5C-Fixtures/Stevensons-5C-Indexing-Head-with-ER32-Nut-and-Adaptor

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I went for a 5C lathe chuck and am happy that I did. Also means that I can hold work in a 5C that is the same dia as the cutter I want to use which can be a downside of only having one size/system of ER. But it comes down to budget in the end, a cheap £20 customer return chuck made the final decision to go with 5C.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

ER20 collets will take up 13mm diameter.

ER25 collets will hold work, or tools with a 16 mm diameter.

ER32 will extend that range upto 20 mm diameter.

Choose a size that will suit your machine.

Trying to use 20 mm tooling in ER32 collets will overload a small machine, and might even damage gears, motor or control board.  If anything, err on the side of safety, and don’t be too ambitious with sizes, depth of cut, or feed rates.

You will be using a lightweight hobby machine, not a 2 ton industrial monster with a 5 or 10 hp 3 phase motor!

DROI is “nice to have” but not initially essentail, You can keep checking with Micrometer, Calliper,(Digital Dial or Vernier) or a Depth Mic, while the money not spent can be used for toolling or something more useful, such a wiggler, or centre finder.

“Measure twice; cut once”

Even if it is available, you don’t have to have power feeds.  Some of us have managed for years without such things, having learned how to use both hands to provide a steady feed.

HTH

Howard

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I would only say that using 20mm tooling in an ER32 has the possibility of overloading a hobby machine. Same machine will run 63mm facemill or flycutter without problems provided you don’t overload it.

If the power feed comment was a reaction to my videos then they need to be taken in context with the articles. The old heavy cut and slow steady speed & feed probably suited the industrial machines some served apprentiships on. The hobby machines with their variable speed electronics are butter run at higerh spindle speeds with smaller cutters that need a faster feed to avoid rubbing and keep a reasonable chip load. Hard to do that with two hands so needs faster hand feeding or power feed if you want to go down that route.

[Howard Lewis]

On Howard Lewis Said:

ER20 collets will take up 13mm diameter.

ER25 collets will hold work, or tools with a 16 mm diameter.

ER32 will extend that range upto 20 mm diameter.

Choose a size that will suit your machine.

Trying to use 20 mm tooling in ER32 collets will overload a small machine, and might even damage gears, motor or control board.  If anything, err on the side of safety, and don’t be too ambitious with sizes, depth of cut, or feed rates.

You will be using a lightweight hobby machine, not a 2 ton industrial monster with a 5 or 10 hp 3 phase motor!

DROI is “nice to have” but not initially essentail, You can keep checking with Micrometer, Calliper,(Digital Dial or Vernier) or a Depth Mic, while the money not spent can be used for toolling or something more useful, such a wiggler, or centre finder.

“Measure twice; cut once”

Even if it is available, you don’t have to have power feeds.  Some of us have managed for years without such things, having learned how to use both hands to provide a steady feed.

HTH

Howard

I bought an ER32 chuck for my mill for collet compatibility with my lathe but I rarely use anything over 16mm on my VMC.
My lathe only has a 20mm bore so there was no point in me going any larger. As it is I use ER32 collets up to 1” on my lathe.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

As I mentioned earlier it all comes down to economy. If you want to use ER collets for both tool and work holding and can only justify one set then ER32 is likely to be better than ER25 due to larger work holding capacity. Just because you can fit a 20mm+ tool does not mean you have to use one.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Having got a good selection of starter ideas, I recommend Robert have a good think about what he intends to make!  At the moment, we’re all suggesting the non-specific standard tooling a beginner might use to learn on without wasting big bucks.   I sympathise because I started that way, only knowing vaguely I needed tools to make things to support may experimental interests.

But Robert will certainly save money is he can buy tools specifically to make that he intends to make!    There’s quite a difference between clockmaking and motorbikes, and between indoor electric railway modelling, and outdoor steam.

The question about 2, 3 and 4 flute cutters is a small example.   They are available because there are jobs that need 2-flutes, and jobs that need 4, and jobs that need 3-flute.   Although, a 3 flute might be a reasonable substitute for 2 and 4 flutes, that’s not why they’re made and sold.   In my workshop, doing what I do, I almost always use 2 and 4 flute cutters, because they both play to their strengths.  Though I have a few 3-flute cutters, I don’t use them much.    This isn’t true of everyone, the reason being the best tool for a job depends on the job.

I started out with the idea I could buy an outfit of tools that would do everything, and tried hard to work-out what they might be.   In practice, as my skills developed, I found some of the outfit was rarely used, whilst many other tools had to be bought in later, always after experience they would make a particular job easier.

My advice, don’t be surprised when tool needs change after work starts!  When money is tight, worst thing that can happen is buying a machine that’s too small for the work.   Then a few quid wasted on rarely used accessories pale into insignificance.

But if Robert can identify what he wants to make, the team will be able to give much better advice.

Dave

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

Not much help with deciding on the size you need for your mill, but I’ve just had a 100mm versatile vice delivered from ARC. Had a thorough look over it and ran a few checks and have to say I’m very impressed with the accuracy, finish and lack of jaw lift when clamping. Only had to remove a couple of sharp edges and it’s good to go, considering the very reasonable price in their current sale I personally find it very satisfactory,

I should qualify the above before someone asks if it was tested with calibrated equipment in a temperature controlled environment. No it wasn’t, just an old bloke in a chilly garage with a DTI. I only build steam engines and bits of workshop equipment and it’s more than accurate enough for that.

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

I use ER32 because I can put Ø19 annular cutter shanks in them on the lathe or the mill.

Martin C

[Robert Bowen-CattryParticipant @robertbowen-cattry70600]

Thanks again everyone for the input, this thread has really been helpful to me.

To answer the question as to what i want to make, initially I need to learn how to mill. I did order the book that was recommended so will get the basic down before I try any projects.

Eventually I want to make parts to support my target shooting (I’m a firearms certificate holder and have a modest collection of small- and full-bore rifles and pistols).

I won’t me making anything pressure rated, but improvements to things like optic mounts, magazine followers, loading press for BP revolver, etc.

On a side note the mill arrived today, again very impressed with Warco for delivering so quickly. Once I figured out how to remove the table I managed to get it onto my workshop floor with the help of my 20 year old son, killing my back in the process.

Unfortunately there it will have to sit for a coupe of weeks. My workshop is already jam packed with stuff, so I am in the process of removing my 4×6 shed and putting in a 10×6 shed. Once done I can clear the workshop, build a bench and get the mill up and running. 🙂

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