Moving a WM18B

[Dave Sawdon 1Participant @davesawdon1]

I need to move my stand-mounted WM18B (from a garage, across some distance of sloping grass to a shed) so plan to remove the table to reduce the weight. I will lower the head but don't have a crane so probably can't remove it.

Is anyone here able to answer the following questions?

• the weight of the machine is 230kg, but what does the stand weigh?
• the weight of the table?
• whether there are tricks to removing or replacing the table?
• the weight of the head? and
• whether there are any tricks to removing or replacing the head?

Mr Google hasn't been able to answer these

[Dave Sawdon 1Participant @davesawdon1]

[Stuart Smith 5Participant @stuartsmith5]

I have a Warco WM16 mill which although smaller and lighter looks to be similar in .design

I bought it secondhand and it was in a first floor workshop with access via a narrow staircase.

I split it into 3 parts to move it.

I removed the head in one complete part with just 3 nuts/bolts to remove. I watched this video on you tube to see how to do it. He went over the top making a block to hold it. **LINK**

I just lowered the head onto a block of wood on the table to take the weight off the head and wound the table with head on it forward then lifted it off. The control box and wiring is attached to the head so comes off as one.

I removed the table and saddle as one by undoing the 2 screws holding the y axis bearing holder and removing the y axis lead screw assembly. I then removed the y axis lead screw nut. This is held by 2 Allen key bolts accessed from underneath the back of the saddle. I could then pull the saddle off complete with table attached. I didn’t remove the gib but with hindsight I should have done.

It may be that on your WM18B the parts are still too heavy for one person to lift but by splitting it 2 people may be able to manage.

I found a manual with diagrams for a similar mill to mine on the ‘Grizzly tools’ US website . You might find one with more info than in the Warco manual.

Hope this helps

Stuart

 

Edited By Stuart Smith 5 on 25/08/2022 23:24:47

Edited By Stuart Smith 5 on 25/08/2022 23:25:04

Edited By Stuart Smith 5 on 25/08/2022 23:25:50

Edited By Stuart Smith 5 on 25/08/2022 23:29:21

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

+1 for what Stuart says about getting a second person to help. Most especially if you do not have appropriate lifting'n shifting experience and proper equipment. Besides sharing the load a second person can be vital in stopping you doing something silly if enthusiasm (or frustration) gets ahead of your brain. How do I know!

Arrange safe parking places so you can safely put things down for a think (or tea) break.

If at all possible avoid putting things, other than the stand, down on the floor. Best is to arrange the parking places for components at or close to the normal working height. Much, much easier to move things on the level.

Using the table movements with a clamped down base is indeed the best way to shift the head. Unlike Stuart I would go further than a simple block and make a base stand with a solid post that can be gripped by collet or chuck to keep the head upright and act as a base when parked. Doesn't have to be elaborate. Simple rod knocked through a previously drilled hole in a suitably hefty lump of wood with another lump screwed on to support the rear part will do fine. The one I made for my Bridgeport is a little more engineered tho' as that head is both heavier and less well balanced.

Take some time to make suitable lifting handles, 2" square timber perhaps, and fix securely in position. For the main body I'd probably lift it clear of the stand by cribbing it up using layers of thinnish wood, MDF, ex-kitchen cabinet bits or whatever is to hand. When it's high enough the handles can be slipped through and fixed with screws through the bolt down holes in the base. Thickness in the 1/2" to 1" range will be fine as the machine can simply be rocked to make clearance for the next layer. Don't use metal for cribbing. It WILL slip. if you have properly prepared the material before starting cribbing up in this way a much faster process than might be expected.

I'd probably not remove the table. With decent handles and two people involved the main body plus table won't be unreasonably heavy. Move the table forwards so the weight of the column is pretty much balanced out. Generally a bit heavy but balanced is easier to manhandle than somewhat lighter but seriously unbalanced. If you do pull the table run the handles front to back and let the column take the load back to the rear person. Or draft in a third to help keep it upright with side to side handles. Third person won't have to work very hard.

Its the head that will surprise you!

If removing the table its much easier with handles bolted to the table extending outside the ends so you don't need to hold an oily dovetail when guiding it out. Without solid handles its tempting to grab the hand wheels. Which tends not to work well!

Realistically given solid handles, appropriate parking places and two averagely strong people involved component weight isn't a great issue.

I've always knife'n forked such jobs with what I had to hand but, objectively, spending £50 or so on timber and fastenings if need be to safely move £2,000 + worth of machinery if you don't have really suitable stocks is the right way to go about things. Its always faster to get all the prep work properly sorted so the move just works rather than make it up as you go along with a high risk of getting stuck with things precariously balanced and the brain in panic "Oh ******, now what do I do!". Been there, dunnit, got the Tee shirt, read the book et al when helping a friend who combined a certain rush headedness with regular overestimation of his knowledge and capabilities. Recalling some of the things he got me involved with still bring on the cold sweats!

Clive

Edited By Clive Foster on 26/08/2022 08:49:14

[TomekParticipant @tomek]

Hi Dave. I was already moving my WM18B twice and as mentioned above, you'll benefit from a help of a second person. On a first time I've took a head off first, than table, saddle and finally a column. On a second time when I was moving a workshop I haven't took a column off as from what I remember it was fiddly to put a gas strut back on.

To take a head off, take a quill handle off first, then get someone to assist you when loosening 3 head bolts. Now you can twist head 90° clockwise, lock it in that position and lower it onto two wooden blocks resting on the mill table. Twisting head to horizontal position will give you a better access to the screws holding a head, after you take them out, slowly wind the table towards you to separate a head from column.

Taking a table and saddle of wasn't difficult, just make sure you mark a gibs before removing so they'll go back the same way after.

You can also separate a column from a base as together they're probably over a 100kg.

As for going over a grass, I had a two sheets of plywood and a small trolley to put a parts on.

Just take your time and remember, lift with your legs not the back!

Tom

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Not sure how much the stand weighs but I moved mine into position myself and I'm a weed!

As the head and table are roughly the same size, a guesstimate suggests about 120kg each. With my back I avoid lifting 50kg sacks on my own, but two reasonably fit chaps should be able to lift the two parts onto a trolley, wheelbarrow or sledge.

The head isn't held on by anything complicated, but controlling it when unbolted could be hairy.

I'd hire an engine crane, about £35 for a weekend. (Where are you? A local might lend you one.)

Dave

[Dave Sawdon 1Participant @davesawdon1]

Thanks chaps (Stuart, Clive and Tomek), that's all useful information.

I'm going to have to do most of this single-handed so need to plan carefully. It's just occurred to me that I can use a 3-part decorating ladder as a bridge to suspend the head and other things from, it's designed for walking on so should be good for 90kg or so. Once suspended and detached I should be able to lower the bits onto a sack truck or wheelbarrow. Thanks, Tomek, for suggesting rotating the head – I hadn't thought of that.

From what I've read, the presence of the gas strut means it's best to keep the column attached to the base. Having thought of using the decorating ladder I think I'll take the base+column off the stand once I've got the table, saddle and head off.

If the whole thing (sans stand) weighs 230kg then is it reasonable to guesstimate the following distribution: head 50kg, table 50kg, saddle 30kg, column+base 80kg, odds'n'sods 20kg … ?

Sliding the table out is a bit worrying because of the potential for damage just before it comes out of the dovetail. I may try to set-up a table for it to slide onto. What have others done?

Edited to reply to SOD (Dave): The whole thing is supposedly 230kg, hence my guessed distribution. If you're correct and the spec weight is wrong then I need to rethink.

FYI I'm in Herefordshire.

Dave

Edited By Dave Sawdon 1 on 26/08/2022 15:25:08

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Dave Sawdon 1 on 26/08/2022 15:20:55:

…

If the whole thing (sans stand) weighs 230kg then is it reasonable to guesstimate the following distribution: head 50kg, table 50kg, saddle 30kg, column+base 80kg, odds'n'sods 20kg … ?

…

Edited to reply to SOD (Dave): The whole thing is supposedly 230kg, hence my guessed distribution. If you're correct and the spec weight is wrong then I need to rethink.

FYI I'm in Herefordshire.

Dave

You're guessed distribution seems reasonable to me Dave. The difference between us is you would break the mill further down than I would; my objection being having to put it back together and straighten her up. So I was thinking of two, maybe three parts. Maybe separate the column and head together from the table, saddle and base.

I'd prefer to not take the table off the saddle or the head off the column. Although it helps manage the weight, the thing has to be put back together again.

Lifting and moving a WM18 in one piece with an engine crane was a doddle in my concrete floored workshop, but your problem is more complicated – getting it across grass and into a shed. A crane will run across a temporary road made of thick plywood sheets, but there may not be room to get the crane into a shed.

Four men with ropes and scaffold poles could also move the whole mill without much trouble. (Rehearse, keep it close to the ground, and make sure everyone knows what to do at the awkward spots or if it slips – run away, rather than try to catch it!)

Makes sense to dismantle as much as possible if you're on your own. Re-assembly and tramming is a faff rather than rocket science.

One of those jobs that gets easier after you've done it a few times. Two or more people is very helpful. I set my workshop up with my daughter, and a big part of her job was to dial 999 in the event I blundered!

Dave

[Dave Sawdon 1Participant @davesawdon1]

Thanks again for the advice.

I'm doing this to separate woodworking from metal working – all the metalwork (lathe, mill, welding) stuff is going into the shed while woodworking stays in the garage. I've even sold my mighty Holbrook C10 because I can't move it to the shed, so I'm looking for a smaller lathe to replace it. Now I need to sell my rarely-used Denford Starmill CNC mill and Denford Starturn 4 CNC lathe – where's the best place to advertise them (apart from feebay)?

Dave

[Maurice TaylorParticipant @mauricetaylor82093]

Hi ,

The easiest and safest way to move your mill is to hire an engine crane and a trolley to move it in one piece.

Warco advise using an engine crane and tell you how to sling it .

Do not try to move it on a slope swinging from engine crane ,it will end in tears .

I have not moved a mill myself ,but have moved a few engines and other items of similar weight.

Hope this helps

Maurice

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

It has been suggested that two men could lift this. NO. Even with bits removed you are looking at 100kg per person or 200lbs+. While two strong men might lift it an inch off the stand they cannot safely lower it to the ground, or even to a lower table. The maximum for most people to safely lift or lower to the ground is about 25kg ie 1/4 this thing. there is a huge difference between straight back lifting and bending to the ground. Your ladder idea and hoist is halfway there but it will only be designed for one big fat bloke of about 100kg – not 200kg. Two ladders and a beam is a possibility.

The way to tackle something this big in congested areas without a crane involves sliding it down a slope of several scaffold planks with a framework bolted to, not leaned against, the stand. It also needs a framework of outriggers to stop it toppling as it moves,.
We did this with a much smaller mill-drill last year as the crane hit the shed roof and could not lift but did add safety in case it fell a foot lower. It was very hairy and I don't think any of us would do it again without much more structural framework on the ramp.

[Dave Sawdon 1Participant @davesawdon1]

Maurice: I agree, but sometimes the best solution isn't feasible. I've removed and moved many things with rollers, pry bars, straps, blocks, and cranes (even, back in student days, a Morris Minor engine with a long piece of wood, some rope, and a pal). The last thing I moved was a Tom Senior M1 mill – pry bar, blocks, trolley jack, pipe rollers and a few straps did the job. When I moved the 1500kg C10 I hired toe jacks and machine skates, but that was on a hard surface.

Bazyle: thanks for the concern but I don't think anyone has suggested lifting the entire mill. The whole mill weighs 230kg and, as I said, my guesstimate of how this will break down is: head 50kg, table 50kg, saddle 30kg, column+base 80kg, odds'n'sods 20kg. I can readily carry 25kg bags of sand or cement (and still remember the 50kg, I think, bags!!) but don't intend to carry any of the items. There will be an overhead "thing" from which the parts will be suspended and lowered. Yes, inclined planes are wonderful things (even for narrow boats) but won't be necessary in this case.

I recall a light aviation accident report where the mishap pilot put down "nemesis resulting from hubris" as the cause – I hope I'm not heading in the same direction

Edited By Dave Sawdon 1 on 26/08/2022 19:28:25

[Stuart Smith 5Participant @stuartsmith5]

Dave

In my previous post, I didn’t make it clear that I rotated the head by 90 degrees before lowering it onto wooden blocks on the table. It is quite stable if you do this.

The other thing you could do is buy a 1 tonne chain block to lift either the complete mill or the parts. If you lifted it complete you could move the stand from under it and lower it onto a garden cart to move it.

I lifted my Warco 290 lathe ok using a chain hoist (£60 from screwfix etc) – that is about the same weight as your mill.

Stuart

Edited By Stuart Smith 5 on 26/08/2022 23:39:17

[Dave Sawdon 1Participant @davesawdon1]

Thanks Stuart, Tomek suggested the same thing. I'll probably make a wooden "something" to hold the head.

Unfortunately I don't have any way to lift the mill in one piece, and wouldn't get a trolley through the shed door, so dismantling and using the sack truck will be the way. It will give me an opportunity to inspect, clean and lube all the ways, so not altogether a bad thing.

If I survive the experience I'll report back in case it helps someone – probably in a couple of weeks.

Meanwhile, if there's anyone in the N of Herefordshire who feels like helping … ?

Dave

[Chris NParticipant @chrisn28797]

I moved mine by breaking it down into table, saddle, head and base/column. The base and column are very heavy indeed and it wasn't possible for me to move them on my own. The other parts were just about manageable, but easier with two people. The head comes off very easily – two or three bolts depending on model and the angular adjustment lock are all you need to remove, I think. I clamped the spindle nose in some V blocks in the vice to stabilise it. I had to remove the DRO scales to get the table off, but that was fairly straightforward too.

[Roger BestParticipant @rogerbest89007]

I would build a trolley out of a few bits of angle iron and some big castors or 8" wheels, bolt it to the stand and give the assembly a bigger wheelbase, then it wouldn't need to be stripped down.

You could probably move a lot of stuff with it.

Waco do such a thing, although not intended for the size I have in my head.

I was a certified "appointed person" for lifting and the thing that makes moving stuff easy is big equipment. Always get bigger than you think you need. I have also been a machine tool designer so I can see both side of the argument.

[Roger BestParticipant @rogerbest89007]

Reading through again I note that the shed door ruins my concept, and that the assumed weight of the head is proposed to be only 50kg.

I know that when Ade of ADES WORKSHOP disassembled his WM16A the head was very much heavier than the other parts.

The two machines are not scaled twins, so it won't be exactly pro-rata but there is a good chance the head is heavier than expected, the main block is mostly metal whereas the other parts are mostly air.

I am looking forward to the pictures.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

A while ago, LIDL were selling narrow trolleys with a 250 Kg capacity so that snould go through a doorway, to take the machine in.

In my book, the less dismantling that you do, the better. Putting everything back EXACTLY as it was will be difficult

I am not inclined to suggest "Jack and Pack" to lift the machine from the floor onto a bench. It would work, but you would need to be EXTREMELY careful to prevent the machine falling over, and damaging itself, you or the locality!

Definitely you need some burly friends!

Howard

[Dave Sawdon 1Participant @davesawdon1]

Mission accomplished – and hubris did not lead to nemesis

In case it's of use to anyone, I:

• removed both quill drives so the head could be laid on the right side
• removed the front panel, z scale, hinged cover and cover clip, safety guard, and rotation stop
• rotated the head to horizontal
• strapped 2 ladders together to form a bridge, strapped the head to the bridge with cam buckle straps, lowered the z so it was hung from the bridge, walked the bridge away from the mill, and lowered the head onto blocks on an old wheeled trolley
• set a work surface next to the x-axis table and just below it, removed the lead screw, removed the DRO scale and rubber cover, slid the table onto the work surface using lengths of dowel as rollers, then slid the table down a plank and on to a trolley
• removed the y axis scale and lead screw, unbolted the y axis nut, slid the saddle off the front
• unbolted the base from the stand, removed the DRO, bolted a short metal bar across the stub that takes the head (to stop a strap from falling-off), strapped the boss to the ladder "bridge", wound-down the z axis and this lifted the column and base off the stand
• slid the stand out of the way and lowered the column+base onto a trolley using z axis movement and cam action straps
• move everything to new location, apply lots of oil and reverse the process – except it was possible to lift the head onto the table. The tricky bit was aligning the three head bolts when getting it back together, it would have been much easier if I'd used a long bolt through the central hole. rather than using the 3 axes to get things aligned.

I apologise for the poor write-up but I wanted to show how one person can do it without a crane and without any scary moments. Some respondents seemed to think it would be complicated but it's a simple job and probably took about 5 hours from start to finish, but spread over a couple of days. The only realignment needed is tramming the head. Adjusting the gibs was trivial and the table and saddle now move far more smoothly than when supplied. (BTW, the "old wheeled trolley" is a decrepit pram base that was in a shed when we moved-in to this house)

The head (without quill drives or z scale): 42kg
Saddle: 15kg
X-axis table 48kg
Leads crews and odds'n'sods

Both nuts are cast iron and the Y-axis nut was very badly made, with holes in the casting. I contacted Warco to get a replacement but they said that I would have to pay because the machine was 2 years old (despite it being a manufacturing defect), that there would be a 12-18 week lead time because they don't hold them in stock, and that most of the nuts were in the same condition so a replacement might be the same. All three of these statements was surprising. I had the idea that Warco ensured the quality of the machines they sold but, having seen the quality of the wiring in the control box and this axis nut, I have my doubts. The nut was usable so I refitted it and will make a "proper" one if it ever needs replacing (unlikely, with my very rare usage).

Edited to add: I forgot to say that the scraping of the ways was "interesting" and not like anything I've seen before on old English machines. A token effort, and mainly to correct a minor casting problem, methinks.

I'm happy to go into more detail on any of this if anyone needs it. Photos available if needed.

Edited By Dave Sawdon 1 on 16/09/2022 21:21:22

[Roger BestParticipant @rogerbest89007]

Well done Dave!

Thanks for posting your tips.

The nut works, so quality is satisfied. That is all we can expect mechanically. There is is a reason Ade stripped his Warco down.

That said they are cheap for what they do.

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