Milling Machines

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

By the way Alan,

I am aware by your various posts on the forum that that you work to a certain high level of precision.

As you are aware, we no longer offer a preparation service. Whilst ours and rest of the Chinese mills available on the market do meet a certain level of precision – assembled machines based on price, these are still very much hobby, budget machines, fit for the purpose of general use – not high precision. They drill and mill as they come. We do not provide any accuracy certificates, nor do we commit to any. Our competitors may or may not provide such certificates for such cheap machines, and it is everyones choice if they wish to believe what they read.

We would not consider these machines as high precision, and as they come, I do not think that any of the Chinese machines be they ours or anyone elses will meet your expectation, even though we believe that they are fit for purpose.

Ketan at ARC.

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

I would like to add my two pen'orth.

I bought Warco's mini mill – no longer sold by them – because a) it had a MT3 taper thus matching my lathe; and b) it was as heavy as I could handle.

The MT3 taper decision has been proved correct as I can use the MT3 direct or finger collets along with plain shank endmills & slotdrills in both machines. The writer who commented on the height saving is quite correct – something like 2"/50mm out of 8"/220mm is saved by using these collets. I rather suspect that buying the collets as necessary would also be better, as it is I have bought all the metric versions available yet only appear to use two or three of them, but also, having a quantity of ¼" diameter steel available, I could use the ¼" collet which, of course, I haven't got.

The point about the weight was, in retrospect, a huge mistake as I had forgotten that the machine could be partially dismantled before installation. I now believe that the X3 or equivalent would have been better.

My machine, and that of a friend, suffered almost immediately from broken plastic gears. My friend replaced his with metal gears from Arc Euro Trade, I replaced mine with plastic gears but have bought a metal set against the day that I break them again.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Peter,

What type of collet chuck did you buy, ER collets are very versatile and a 7mm collet would be able to hold 1/4" as well. It is that versatility as well as the concentricity which has made the type so successful.

Best regards

Terry

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Hi Peter,

Luckily, the Brushless SX2P has a belt drive and a fixed column, so not plastic gear breakage. However, I do believe that the original plastic gears in the original X2s are a failsafe to deal with certain overload scenarios. I am aware that not everyone shares my view on this, and I for one would keep the plastic gears rather than change them to metal gears, if I owned the original X2, even though ARC does sell the metal gears .

At the same time, I can also see why changing them to metal gears may appeal to people, especially as the changing process can be time consuming.

Ketan at ARC.

Edited By Ketan Swali on 16/01/2013 15:36:03

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Terryd,

I don't have a collet chuck – just the finger/direct collets that plug straight into the mandrel. What I have done in the past is mount a length of this ¼" stuff in the three-jaw and turn it down to a suitable metric value then transfer over to the appropriate direct/finger collet. The thing is that this ¼" steel, although scrap, is actually very free cutting hence I am thinking about obtaining the correct direct collet.

Ketan,

I appreciate and understand your comment. Thanks.

What really annoyed me was that these things broke within three weeks of receiving the machine and I was most definitely not overloading – if anything I was probably too light in terms of tooth load etc. Another reason why I bought this particular machine was because of the uprated motor, hence I expected that the control electronics would have been uprated as well to cope with the additional probable loading, as should have been the plastic gears – but obviously not.

Changing the gears was a right pain and involved at one point some brute force involving a club hammer, lumps of wood and a pair of bricks. Hardly good engineering practice. Which is why when they fail again, they will be replaced by metal gears along with new mandrel bearings.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 16/01/2013 15:33:31:

Hi Peter,

Luckily, the Brushless SX2P has a belt drive and a fixed column, so not plastic gear breakage. However, I do believe that the original plastic gears in the original X2s are a failsafe to deal with certain overload scenarios. I am aware that not everyone shares my view on this, and I for one would keep the plastic gears rather than change them to metal gears, if I owned the original X2, even though ARC does sell the metal gears .

At the same time, I can also see why changing them to metal gears may appeal to people, especially as the changing process can be time consuming.

Ketan at ARC.

Edited By Ketan Swali on 16/01/2013 15:36:03

Hi Ketan,

Hope Christmas was ok and that you're keeping well. I agree with you on the plastic gears, putting a weak link into a drivetrain is considered good engineering practice, better to have a cheap plastic gear or shear pin fail than an expensive motor or worse.  I recently had a shear pin fail on my lathe, if it had been replaced with a stronger one as some have advised elsewhere it would probably have sheared a couple of gears in the gearbox.

We always designed our drive units (overhead conveyor systems and other materials handling equipment) with shear pins or similar as a fail safe to prevent damage to expensive equipment or operators. I too would be very wary of replacing such a device with an alternative which doesn't break but causes much worse damage.

Looking forward to visiting ARC again soon,

Best regards

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 16/01/2013 16:33:34

[steve clark 2Participant @steveclark2]

Posted by Terryd on 16/01/2013 08:42:43:

Posted by Old School on 15/01/2013 13:03:13:

Steve

………………………….The main advantage is R8 tooling has a key way in it does not slip in the machine and it does not have to pulled up as tight with draw bar as mt tooling and consequentially you dont have to hit the draw bar as hard to release the tooling.

Olly

Hi Steve,

I don't know if this has been pointed out by others but RE taper is not a collet system it is an alternative taper system to Morse tapers. The 'E' system of collets are used in holders or chucks which can have Morse or R8 tapers (there are other systems but these two are the most common).

The ER collet systems are useful because they can hold a range of size in each collet, unlike other less versatile systems. Hence a 6mm collet can hold work or cutters between 5 and 6mm because of the 'compressibility' of the collet. The system can be used to hold work or tools so is very versatile. So if you have an E collet chuck with a few collets for the milling machine that is really all the toolholding you need. There is no need for a different 'milling' chuck. My MT3, E32 chuck is hardly ever removed from the milling machine and it can hold all but my largest drills and milling cutters. I have a seperate lathe collet holder which I can use for much of my turning when I need accurate concentricity and repeatability

As another 'old schooler' I can honestly say that I never have to do more than nip up the drawbar in my milling machine with an MT3 taper housing and my MT2 drilling machine has never dropped it's chuck or the large MT drills I sometimes use and the MT taper in my lathe headstock and tailstock have never let me down.

The problems with morse tapers combined with drawbars is that folk tend to tighten them with too much force and consequently need to hammer the drawbar to free the taper. Worst problem is that they then use a steel hammer instead of a copper one (or similar) to bash the poor thing when struggling to remove the chuck. In all my years of machining I have usually just had to give the drawbar a light rap to release it, only rarely had to use a lot of force but have used a copper hammer and caused no damage to the machine. Then again I was taught in the toolroom but did witness a few gorillas in the production machine shop who thought that they had to use a lump hammer on every spanner and locking lever in sight.

The advantage in the home workshop of MTs is that tooling is common to lathe, drilling and milling machines, I can transfer my E32 collets and other tooling from lathe to milling machine or drilling machine with ease. No need for duplicate collet chucks.

My advice as to actual machine is to get the most solid you can, I have the equivalent of the Warco WM18 with a similar pressed steel stand and find it perfectly adequate and solid when bolted down. It's not a patch on my mate's Bridgeport but it does what I need without complaint.

Regards

T

Edited By Terryd on 16/01/2013 08:44:41

Thanks, now I don't know what to do, the E system sounds good, one collet being able to clamp a couple of different sized bits would be a bonus in my eyes. Is it like the system on a Dremel machine then where the 'cap' screws down tightly squeezing the collet around the tool's shaft?

Does the 'cap' part eat into/take away some of the available work height though? Would the R8 be better in this aspect?

[steve clark 2Participant @steveclark2]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 16/01/2013 13:05:31:

Posted by steve clark 2 on 15/01/2013 12:30:01:

Thanks guys, a can of worms it sure is isn't it.

One company I spoke to disputes the thinking that these machines are made by a couple of factories in China, if they were then there would be less differences in wattage motors for example from one make/model to another. Also other related parts may well not fit what appears to be a 'twin' machine.

I dont quite understand what you mean. Depending on what machine you want, there are many makers of mini-mill and mini-lathe. Motor sizes, wattage, length and type of bed for lathe, and different lengths of table etc. for mills, depends on what the importer wants out of each manufacturers range. Some parts will be different on 'twin' machines. eg. lathe mini-lathe from SIEG has a different bed from the one manufactured by some other factory. Saddles may be different.

Ketan at ARC.

In the past I've been told that it doesn't really matter which one you buy, they all come from one or two factories period.

This guy were saying that's bull because there are so many different wattage motors alone fitted to these machines, why would say two factories make/fit several different motors in the first place?

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Peter G. Shaw on 16/01/2013 16:10:00:

What really annoyed me was that these things broke within three weeks of receiving the machine and I was most definitely not overloading – if anything I was probably too light in terms of tooth load etc. Another reason why I bought this particular machine was because of the uprated motor, hence I expected that the control electronics would have been uprated as well to cope with the additional probable loading, as should have been the plastic gears – but obviously not.

Peter G. Shaw

Ah, I see. I am aware that for around the past four years, Warcos mini-mill came from the Yangzhou area – possibly Real Bull and derivatives. I know that they put in a higher wattage motor. Cannot comment on the results, as not from the SIEG stable.

SIEG have not uprated their brushed motor on the X2. They simply moved to the 500w Brushless motor belt drive in the SX2 series. In turn, some competitors entered into a 'my one is bigger' contest offering 600w brushed motor offerings with geared head or belt drive. Cannot say if it has improved things for them. However, I can definitely say that the 500w brushless on the SX2P has more torque than the 600w brushed on the original X3!.

Ketan at ARC.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Thanks Terry, hope to see you soon too.

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Posted by steve clark 2 on 16/01/2013 16:32:59:

Thanks, now I don't know what to do, the E system sounds good, one collet being able to clamp a couple of different sized bits would be a bonus in my eyes. Is it like the system on a Dremel machine then where the 'cap' screws down tightly squeezing the collet around the tool's shaft?

Does the 'cap' part eat into/take away some of the available work height though? Would the R8 be better in this aspect?

Hi Steve,

The collet holder and cap of the 'E' system does take up a little 'headroom' but much less than a drill chuck or say a Clarkson style holder. You have to have some method of hiolding milling cutters and this is probably the best

As for R8, it is simply a taper locating system as an alternative to Morse Taper. The 'E' collet holders are available for both systems, You will probably have a Morse taper on your lathe hence personally I keep to those on both my lathe and milling machine but others prefer the R8 taper for their milling machines. As for an R8 to Morse adaptor, I personally prefer not to add yet another link in the chain which may lead to inaccuracy – I'm just a simple bod at heart (and in mind perhaps )

Best regards

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 16/01/2013 17:06:55

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

I bought an SX2P last year to convert to cnc(see here). I chose the MT3 version for compatability with the lathe. As Ketan has said it is not a precision machine however it can be improved with very little effort. If it's to be your first mill I would recommend using it a received. You can always improve it later if you need to.

Russell.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by steve clark 2 on 16/01/2013 16:38:26:

 

In the past I've been told that it doesn't really matter which one you buy, they all come from one or two factories period.

This guy were saying that's bull because there are so many different wattage motors alone fitted to these machines, why would say two factories make/fit several different motors in the first place?

Depending on what you want, it is true that there were about two active factories and about three remote unknown factories in the mini-lathe/mill game. Once RB went bust, or as people started leaving RB, more small factories were created based around the sub-contractors in Yangzhou, good, bad and ugly. Some also came from the original Optimum Chinese partnership. Again, good bad and ugly.

ARC chooses to stick with SIEG. We prefer to deal with one manufacturer for all issues.

Answer to your second paragraph: why would say two factories make/fit several different motors in the first place?…….PRICE……and who is prepared to pay what.

In mini-lathes from the SIEG factory, there is a C2, SC2, C3, SC3.

Although we do not keep the C2, I believe its wattage is 250w, sold by Axminster.

Same machine sold with the same motor by Machine Mart is sold as being with 300w, but it depends on how you define wattage. Something to do with definition of input and output wattage and marketing, if you get my drift.

SC2 same as SC3 with 500w brushless motor with belt drive, but different bed lengths. SC2 is shorter bed length than SC3. SC2 sold by Ax, and SC3 sold by ARC. As I said before, the 500w brushless motor on the SX2 has more torque than the 600w brushed motor on the X3. the 500w brushless motor on the SX2 is the same one which is on the SC3 lathe.

C3 has a 350w brushed motor and geared drive.

All of the above is from SIEG alone. Add to this mix:

Competitors from various Yangzhou stables have come up with uprated brushed motor 600w 'ours is bigger concept' to compete with the 500w brushless from SIEG.

So, finally, you believe what you choose to believe.

Ketan at ARC.

Edited By Ketan Swali on 16/01/2013 17:23:59

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

Ketan,

I`m not so naive to expect your machines to be high precision! One important thing for me is after sales service, availability of spare parts, if needed, and availability of accessories.

In the recent thread that you refered to in your post, your intelligent responses were to my satisfaction and I will be coming to your warehouse, when I get back to the UK, to look at the machines and probably take one away with me.

I would buy British if I could find a suitable small machine available, was outbid on fleabay for a Dore Westbury Mk 1 which is the size that I`m looking for, roughly corresponding to your X2 mill.

See you soon,

Alan

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

What's not been mentioned is the rigidity issue with X2 mills. This can be addressed see my article in MEW and it makes a HUGE difference – at least it did to my mill.

OTOH Arc have abandoned the rarely-used tilting column faclity for a much more rigid fixing (combining a large size X1 table with an X2 head) I don't think any of the competitors offer this at the moment.

Personally, if I had the cash I'd upgrade to an X3 from Arc!

Neil

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 16/01/2013 14:44:43:

By the way Alan,

I am aware by your various posts on the forum that that you work to a certain high level of precision.

As you are aware, we no longer offer a preparation service. Whilst ours and rest of the Chinese mills available on the market do meet a certain level of precision – assembled machines based on price, these are still very much hobby, budget machines, fit for the purpose of general use – not high precision. They drill and mill as they come. We do not provide any accuracy certificates, nor do we commit to any. Our competitors may or may not provide such certificates for such cheap machines, and it is everyones choice if they wish to believe what they read.

We would not consider these machines as high precision, and as they come, I do not think that any of the Chinese machines be they ours or anyone elses will meet your expectation, even though we believe that they are fit for purpose.

Ketan at ARC.

Hi Ketan, I recently bought a mini-mill similar to your X1L from one of your competitors and I can assure you that there was no accuracy certificate with that. Haven't used it in anger yet, but as you would expect for the price, some adjustment and tweaking was needed.This is no problem for me as I've been a maintenance fitter for the most part of my working life and these are like child's play to me compared to much of the machinery I used to deal with. I'll just say I choose the one I bought for the prime reason that it had the sort table, the price was pretty much the same.

Regards Nick.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by alan smith 6 on 16/01/2013 17:37:59:

Ketan,

I`m not so naive to expect your machines to be high precision! One important thing for me is after sales service, availability of spare parts, if needed, and availability of accessories.

In the recent thread that you refered to in your post, your intelligent responses were to my satisfaction and I will be coming to your warehouse, when I get back to the UK, to look at the machines and probably take one away with me.

I would buy British if I could find a suitable small machine available, was outbid on fleabay for a Dore Westbury Mk 1 which is the size that I`m looking for, roughly corresponding to your X2 mill.

See you soon,

Alan

Ok understood Alan, thank you. I am sure you are not naive. Your posts are usually very specific when referring to precision, and you do have a positive reputation, resulting in a following by various members on this forum. It is in this respect that I have to be careful. I have to ensure that by your expressing an interest in the SX2, it does not infer to others that the machine from us is better in build or precision than any other Chinese machine in similar price range. ARC just believe that our machines provide good value for money.

The components used in the assembly, after sales service, availability of spares are indeed another different issue. I look forward to meeting you when you are back in the U.K..

Ketan at ARC.

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

Steve,

As you said right 'ol can o' worms this has turned out to be innit! still every one has their own opinions, & that's as it should be, giving rise to healthy 'debate' isn't a bad thing. I bought my machines as they were the right price with a decent deal 'on the day' & I can concur with a lot of what all the members have said, although in places the thread has I would say 'digressed to a certain degree'.

Phil A.. As with you I have bolted my mill to the wall which does stiffen it a lot more, & it is more convenient than floor fixing & the same with the MT 2 capabilities between mill & lathe, in hindsight I would have foregone the stand & had a much more substantial bench constructed I only tighten the draw bar 'hand tight' &, as you say, backing the draw bar up against the collar does 'self eject' the taper, mind you everyones 'hand tight' is different I can imagine someone who is built like a brick sh*** house can apply more leverage than I can so would probably need some 'extra' persuasion. I can only add that on a couple of rare occasions I have had to 'gently persuade' the draw bar with a brass hammer.

Refering back to tooling (TerryD & others) I too have bought a set of ER25 collets, from a Co. in Hong Kong, originally with a MT3 holder for my original machine which was a combi machine a C 500 (again Chinese) & I can't complain of the quality as supplied, again to the unitiated I have honestly only used 2 or 3 collets so far, 5,12,16mm but as I bought the full set of 16 I'm sure I'll use the rest eventually..at least I have them. Since getting my 'toys' I went back to the same Co. to buy a MT2 & 4 holders to suit the mill, & the lathe headstock,again at a very reasonable price. I can concur with others & do ensure that you get a decent 'milling' vice & not a 'drilling' vice there's no comparison, I got my 4" vice from Arc Euro (as with a lot of my stuff), who do supply decent equipment I must add (usual disclaimer.. thanks Ketan).

Regards

George

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Stub Mandrel on 16/01/2013 19:26:33:

What's not been mentioned is the rigidity issue with X2 mills. This can be addressed see my article in MEW and it makes a HUGE difference – at least it did to my mill.

OTOH Arc have abandoned the rarely-used tilting column faclity for a much more rigid fixing (combining a large size X1 table with an X2 head) I don't think any of the competitors offer this at the moment.

Personally, if I had the cash I'd upgrade to an X3 from Arc!

Neil

The article looks good. Two telephone inquirers wanting an American kit to do the mods you did were promptly referred to your article by ARC. I think it will be continued in the next issue?

With regard to the fixed column, it took me a long time to convince the factory to do it. I also had to work hard to get them to make a thicker box section on the column. Wall thickness is about 10mm. It was hard work to make them change the column, because they were just burnt by two large importers who made promises for sales quantity for another machine on an exclusive arrangement, which they failed to keep, and they thought that I will do the same thing. Needless to say, it turned out to be good at the end of the day for SIEG and us for the SX2P. However, it does leave a bad taste when the American marketing machine gives credit for its development to another American. Really p****s me off.

Ketan at ARC.

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Hi Ketan,

You should get John to laser cut bracing plates, bundle them with a couple of big cap screws and some bored out bar spacers – I'm sure more than a few people would apprecaite not having to saw up a loudspeaker like I did

I might try an epoxy/sand mix in the column of my mill – not as good as adding metal but some say it helps.

Neil

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Nicholas Farr on 16/01/2013 19:28:29:

Hi Ketan, I recently bought a mini-mill similar to your X1L from one of your competitors and I can assure you that there was no accuracy certificate with that. Haven't used it in anger yet, but as you would expect for the price, some adjustment and tweaking was needed.This is no problem for me as I've been a maintenance fitter for the most part of my working life and these are like child's play to me compared to much of the machinery I used to deal with. I'll just say I choose the one I bought for the prime reason that it had the sort table, the price was pretty much the same.

Regards Nick.

Nick,

You are right in what you are saying. Whilst the adjusting and tweaking process is second nature to you, currently there are a lot of people entering this hobby who do not know what is what, and everyone is working to a tight budget. Steve, the chap who started this thread is a good example, and I am not saying this with with any disrespect to him. Who and what to believe is a difficult process for them, especially when they get conflicting opinions when they visit the shows. ARCs openness about machine limitations are not necessarily accepted by everyone visiting a show, where such buyers choose to believe what they want. What is there to say that we are correct?

At least one of the machines mentioned in Steves opening post is offered with an inspection/accuracy certificate. At least one of the machines mentioned in the opening post is offered with a statement that the said supplier has his own inspection team in the factory. Both of these statements will definitely be mentioned at the show along with a standard comment by a competitor that all you need is a can of WD40 to prepare a machine!..I also have no doubt that some of the other comments mentioned by Steve will also be mentioned. All great marketing comments. Everyone makes their own judgement about what to believe.

Ketan at ARC

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Stub Mandrel on 16/01/2013 20:22:55:

Hi Ketan,

You should get John to laser cut bracing plates, bundle them with a couple of big cap screws and some bored out bar spacers – I'm sure more than a few people would apprecaite not having to saw up a loudspeaker like I did

I might try an epoxy/sand mix in the column of my mill – not as good as adding metal but some say it helps.

Neil

LOL, I will speak with John about your suggestion.

Don't try the epoxy/sand mix in the column, unless you really know what you are doing. Something to do with curing time and heat dissipation as I have been told. Cant remember the exact details. If you dont know for sure, please ask an experienced person who has done it for a living. Most of the attempts made are not exactly successful.

Ketan at ARC.

[Bob PerkinsParticipant @bobperkins67044]

Ketan,

Any prospects of arc supplying a power feed kit for the SX2 plus?

Bob P

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Ketan, I agree to your response to my posting, the point I was trying to convey was that I bought what I wanted and not what someone else wanted to sell me, no disrespect to yourself or your competitors as I have purchased from the both of you and have had an honest trade. Your X1L was seriously considered, but the sort table version won. I will however be buying the M6 stud clamping set from you soon. Shopping around is not always about price, sometimes the options come first. I do understand that some people do not know what they are looking for or what they most likely need and forums like this can really help them and I for one trust your input and the guides on your web site.

Regards Nick.

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

Posted by Stub Mandrel on 16/01/2013 19:26:33:

What's not been mentioned is the rigidity issue with X2 mills. This can be addressed see my article in MEW and it makes a HUGE difference – at least it did to my mill.

OTOH Arc have abandoned the rarely-used tilting column faclity for a much more rigid fixing (combining a large size X1 table with an X2 head) I don't think any of the competitors offer this at the moment.

Personally, if I had the cash I'd upgrade to an X3 from Arc!

Neil

Neil,

Until a couple of weeks ago I never dreamt that I would consider anything Chinese, consequently when flicking through the mag I ignored any articles about this subject.

Please inform us what issue your article was published in.

Alan

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