measuring small bores

[RRMBKParticipant @rrmbk]

Hi All . I am trying to bore some GM axle boxes to take a 12mm OD needle roller bearing. It requires an N6 interference fit but I cant seem to solve two issues .

Although I am using a tool with as large a stem diameter as possible I am still getting bell mouth/ taper down the length of the bore which is appx 15 mm.

Also any idea on how to accurately measure such a small bore please? vernier/ digital callipers don't seem to give repeatable accuracy and my expanding bore gauge doesn't go small enough.

would greatly appreciate any input having already scrapped two boxes!

[RRMBKParticipant @rrmbk]

bell mouthing.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

12mm is at the upper end of this set from Warco:

**LINK**

Haven't tried them, so I can't comment on quality, but the principle is good.

MichaelG.

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

I use this for small bores although a go/no go gauge may be an option

[FatgadgiParticipant @fatgadgi]

Hi RR

Measuring small bores accurately is expensive.

If you don't want to do it too often, as Bob says a Go / No Go gauge is a good way to go and you can turn them up easily enough from mild steel. You can easily measure the diameters with a micrometer.

Cheers – Will

[Boiler BriParticipant @boilerbri]

I make plug gauges to the size that I want and then keep them safe for use in the future. You can end up with quite a selection.

Brian

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Telescopic bore gauges aren't too expensive, basically spring loaded plunger on a handle, tried an image but that didn't go well. Google or Ebay will assist

Draper are fairly cheap

Tony

[Jens Eirik Skogstad 1Participant @jenseirikskogstad1]

You can use steel ball in right size with handle soldered on as measure tool.

[John ReeseParticipant @johnreese12848]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 21/06/2016 17:17:05:

12mm is at the upper end of this set from Warco:

**LINK**

Haven't tried them, so I can't comment on quality, but the principle is good.

MichaelG.

MichaelG has recommended the best and most versatile tool for the job. The quality varies among the different brands. Here in the US I would favor Starrett or Mitutoyo. If buying an off brand pay particular attention to the finish on the ball end. A poor finish will impair the ability to feel when you have proper contact. There is also a flat bottom version of the small hole gauge that permits measurement close to the bottom of a blind hole. I also suggest a set of telescoping gauges if you are measuring larger bores.

[Robert DoddsParticipant @robertdodds43397]

Is nobody prepared to offer advice on the OP's primary problem? He scrapping parts because of bellmouthing!
My suggestion would be to acquire a good sharp 12 mm reamer to finish size the GM.
Bearing OD's are usually arranged to get the right fit with a nominal size bore but confirm this by checking your bearing OD.
The type of reamer, machine or hand, may depend on the through clearance you have beyond the 15mm bore for the reamer to run into.

Bob D

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Robert Dodds on 21/06/2016 22:55:07:

Is nobody prepared to offer advice on the OP's primary problem? He scrapping parts because of bellmouthing!

.

As Joseph Whitworth famously said:

'You can only make as well as you can measure.'

MichaelG.

[FatgadgiParticipant @fatgadgi]

I have a nice set of M&W telescopic gauges which I use a lot and I would highly recommend them for general use.

But they are not super accurate, certainly I couldn't measure within an N6 tolerance with mine.

I did check how accurate they were once and using them very carefully in a ring gauge from a Micro Mag set I had readings of up to 0.02mm oversize. The error could well be my failing, but I did try hard to get good accuracy.

Never tried the Mitutoyo split sphere style, but I would guess they are of a similar accuracy because they rely on feel, probably more than the telescopic ones.

Cheers – Will

[JohnFParticipant @johnf59703]

RRMBK, sound to me that it may be the tool causing the bell mouth [assuming your lathe is turning true?] what tooling are you using?

Personally I would suggest checking your clearance angles or if I was making one I would grind it from round HSS, grind to half the diameter for about 10mm then some clearance along the shank, only about another 10mm in this case. this will give you a very stiff tool, stone to a keen edge.

For measurement make a plug gauge to size then reduce the first 5/6mm by 0.001" or 0.025mm then bore until the first part enters you then know you have 0.001" to size. We used these extensively in jig boring when boring holes for liner bushes in jigs and fixtures. John

PS PM me if you want a photo of a boring bar made as described.

[brickyParticipant @bricky]

Bore close to size and make a D bit to finished diameter to finish with.

Frank

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

KISS principle. A reamer for the purpose. Bob D got it in one.

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Posted by not done it yet on 22/06/2016 07:09:28:

KISS principle. A reamer for the purpose. Bob D got it in one.

Sounds simple in principle & only takes a few words to say it but reamers/D bits are not without their problems. I would persevere with boring to size the OP has plenty of advice to go on.

Tony

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Anyone know where to get N6 reamers, most are H7 or H8. Even a D bit will take quite a few trial runs to get it to form a hole to N6.

Tapered bore as said above could be tool rubbing, are you taking any spring cuts at the end? also need a very sharp tool your average indexable tool will get pushed off the surface trying to sneak up on a fine fit so Hss in a holder would be my prefered cutter. Plug gauge to measure

Not being a loco boy, how do needle rollers perform on axle boxes that move up and down and get coal dust on them?

 

J

Edited By JasonB on 22/06/2016 07:34:32

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

You could try using an adjustable hand reamer to sneak up on the final dimension. By using the tailstock centre to guide it through the hole, it should come out nice and parallel too. (Assuming it is not a blind hole)

+1 on ball gauges for small diameters (under half inch/13mm). Then measure the ball gauge with a good micrometer. They will give a better feel/reading than most digital calipers for most users.

Best final sizing is still checked by feel. Torrington-style Needle rollers need only the slightest of interference fit so you will feel it "almost start to go in" when the size is right.

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

In an industrial environment the usual measuring tool would be a Bowers gauge. But these are too expensive a purchase for a home shop (I have a used 3/4"-1" that I got for free). How are you controlling the temperature in your work piece and workshop to achieve such a tight tolerance? Michael G got it right when he asked how well can you measure it. These sort of tolerances require some idea of workpiece and measuring tool temperature. The range of n6 at Ø15 (+0.012 to +0.023mm) is the same as a 6°C change in temperature in steel. If your workpiece is heating up as you bore it it could cause bellmouthing that is measurable. Flood coolant would control this.

Martin

[JonParticipant @jon]

Put a cut on and watch the tool deflect.

Some of the bellmouthing can be reduced by angling flimsy tools inwards not at 90 degrees maybe 70 degrees ish. If must go for HSS buy decent once cobalt 5% English pretty good and last the cut.

I would be doing that 15mm bore with indexable 6mm shanked quality boring bar that don't visually flex where quality if it still exists HSS 1/2" will.

[Anonymous]

Posted by JasonB on 22/06/2016 07:33:41:

Anyone know where to get N6 reamers, most are H7 or H8. Even a D bit will take quite a few trial runs to get it to form a hole to N6.

Not a problem, my local tool emporium stocks reamers in increments of 0.01mm, so just choose an appropriate size. Of course one needs to allow for new reamers cutting slightly oversize, but slightly undersize in bronze, and presumably in GM.

As for measurement I'd make a go/nogo gauge.

Andrew

[SandgrounderParticipant @sandgrounder]

Just a little puzzled about this tool flexure, when the tool touches the bore and flexes, won't it stay in that flexed position for the whole length of travel and give a straight bore?

John

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

GM is 'slippery' so difficult to take a fine cut with a blunt tool but in itself is soft if not work hardened. A sliver steel tool from half inch rod tempered dead hard will be as rigid as you can reasonably get and can be sharpened to a finer edge than anything else. Make sure it is cutting on the end face only so there is no sideways force. Also make sure the holding method is secure as steel holding screws on a steel tool often slip a few thou.

Temperature is not a problem, the coefficient of expansion is 18 parts in a million per degree so you have 50 to 100 degrees to play with.

Since someone mentioned ball bearings you do know you can size a hole in soft material by pushing a ball bearing through it with a big press.

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

Suggest use a HSS toolbit ground to form a boring tool,tools ground in this manner always perform better than preformed HSS tools, I would not use carbide, don't use a high turning speed,use a similar speed to machining mild steel i.e. around 400 /500 rpm.ensure the cutting edge is sharp and honed,and there is enough clearance on the tool to avoid rubbing. Regarding the scrappers why not bore them larger i.e. around 13 mm and fit a brass or steel thin wall bush and secure with high strength Loctite, For years I preferred mechanical means to secure bushes etc but have found that high strength Loctite performs very well provided the bonded areas are very clean. Bore measurement is difficult, I have a set of M & W small hole gauges,which are quite good ,they have a long stalk which contains two steel balls diametrically opposed which expand outwards, I have telescope gauges both M & W and mitutoyo, the former have a better feel. though for the best accuracy I prefer to use the jaws of my Etalon vernier,this is an old style vernier with rounded jaws,not knife edge. slide the jaws in the hole,use the screw adjustment to get the jaws to slide in the hole and then lock the jaws,then measure over the jaws with a micrometer,by using the one measuring tool to measure the OD of the bearing and the hole there is less error. I have found that the tele gauge is slightly better for running fits and the vernier for tight or press fits as any slight error makes the running fit slacker and the press fit tighter ,as the whole process relies on the feel of the operator. The use of plug gauges is the older method and is cheap it again relies on" feel " and of course the depth of cut to get the required fit is guess work ,unless the stepped type gauge is used.. Of course there is the other method why to loctite the bearing in place,I believe that the tight limits for the bearings does give the best performance,but if these limits cannot be achieved then bond them in.

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

RRMBK,

As usual for this type of thing there is loads of advice, some good some bad! it is going to be difficult for you to decide which is which, but plenty to think about.

Tony

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