Log-antilog table booklet

[Tony MartyrParticipant @tonymartyr14488]

Since everyone in my school had one of those little brown books of log and trig tables I felt sure that eBay etc would be awash with copies – wrong!

I've been trying to buy a set and all Amazon etc have are expensive tomes of historical reprints. Did we all throw them away?

anyone know of a source, preferably of 7 figure log and antilog tables (I know you can download limited versions but they are not user friendly )

Tony

[Tony MartyrParticipant @tonymartyr14488]

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Do you want hard copy, or just the function?

If just function, Scientific calculators provide logs and antilogs, and are available pretty cheaply now.

If I were a computer buff, I could probably tell you how to use Excel in a similar way!

Howard

[Engine BuilderParticipant @enginebuilder]

You could get a copy of Zeus tables, log and antilog tables are included along with many other useful stuff.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Hi Tony,

I only have a set of 4-figure logs.

I have to ask, what do you want them for in a time of scientific calculators and spreadsheets?

Neil

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Tony,

Have a look at Abe

MichaelG.

[mickParticipant @mick65121]

As soon as they invented the pocket calculator, I was the first to bin my log tables!!!

[Engine BuilderParticipant @enginebuilder]

I have a slide rule if anyone wants it, hasn't been used for years.

Edit, and an Abacus.

Edited By Engine Builder on 30/09/2014 17:45:52

[Les Jones 1Participant @lesjones1]

Hi Tony,
The scientific view of the calculator on widows 7 gives logs to 30 decimal places.

Les.

[Tony MartyrParticipant @tonymartyr14488]

A word or two of explanation : I am keen to get a hard copy of the secondary school tables of my youth as part of a personal archive of my technical education. In dealing with post graduate engineering students of today I am struck by the lack of intuitive grasp shown in some of the underlying maths (they just believe what the screen tells them!) and how quickly the methods of my own training are disappearing without trace -I should say that these remarks are confine to British and American students!

as an aside I am convinced that students using digital devices are at a disadvantage compared with those of us who used tables and slide rules since they get one answer to the calculation while we saw the analogue range of answers either side of the calculated figure. I claim that for some calculations such as those involved in the design of fluid flow systems (sizing of gravel pump systems etc) a slide rule is superior to a calculator since you see the range of possible answers above and below the calculated figure. Using log tables has the same analogue effect as, in engineering there is rarely an exactly correct answer but one where you have to choose a standard steel section or pipe size rather than a nonexistent calculated form and add a safety factor of your own choice. Life is analogue.

i am also convinced that calculation using log tables gives an intuitive grasp of the underlying maths that is a good foundation to dealing with far less intuitive areas of engineering such as steam tables and entropy. As for believing the computer I relate a true account of finding a power correction figure used by the engine test cells of a major UK manufacturer. It puzzled me and I asked the chief test engineer of its genesis. It had been inherited from his predecessor and never been challenged – it transpired that for almost 8 years engine power had been over stated by some 2 percent because nobody had an intuitive 'feel' for the numbers.

Rant over

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

We had a book called Napiers Nautical Tables for doing stuff at sea and I'm pretty sure they included Logs

Like most thickies I joined the mad dash for calculators when they became available

You can find various stuff here

Edited By Ady1 on 30/09/2014 20:52:22

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Tony,

I think you will appreciate the sentiment in my post, timed 22:53:21 on this previous thread.

MichaelG.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

An unexpected side effect of the digital revolution is that the humble British adder, vipera berus, is a threatened species.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

after all, how can an adder multiply…

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

without log tables?

 

sorry!

Edited By John Haine on 30/09/2014 21:28:00

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by Tony Martyr on 30/09/2014 20:22:44:

i am also convinced that calculation using log tables gives an intuitive grasp of the underlying maths

I don't know that I'd agree that log-functions demonstrate the underlying maths for a multiplication operation. They are a convenient workaround to avoid the rigours of long-multiplication of many-digit numbers but they aren't fundamental to the operation.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Posted by John Haine on 30/09/2014 21:27:20:

after all, how can an adder multiply…

without log tables?

sorry!

Edited By John Haine on 30/09/2014 21:28:00

Hi John, the adder souldn't have any trouble multipling, after all, multiplication is only adding by a faster method.

e.g. 3 X 12 = 36 which is the same as; 12 + 12 + 12 = 36. No log tables were disturbed in ether calculation.

Regards Nick.

[NJHParticipant @njh]

I still have my "putty" coloured set of ;-

" FOUR-FIGURE MATHEMATICAL TABLES"

BY

FRANK CASTLE M.I.MECH.E.

I notice that I have drawn a fine red cross across the pages of the "ANTILOGARITHMS" – anyone who has used these tables to any extent will know why!

I did also have another, rather more accurate, set of tables in an orange cover ( I can't put my hand on that at he moment)

Thank goodness for caculators and computers I say!

( I do still have my course notes for Advanced Microwave Radio principles – I course where I gained a distinction. If ever I feel a bit smart about anything I get these out and look through them. — I don't understand a blooming word!)

Regards

Norman

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

A quick check and it took me less than a minute to find my SMP log tables, though I haven't used them for a decade as I also have Machinery handbook in a closer bookshelf.

Calculators can lead one astray. I was recently examining a design from the 1930's or earlier and puzzled that a dimension was not an obvious 'round figure'. I was using Excel. I then recalculated using the value of sine 15 degrees given in tables instead of the computer and it all fell into place. This in turn indicated how the original manufacturer had made the part quite easily without a CNC mill.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Bazyle on 01/10/2014 00:57:03:

Calculators can lead one astray.

.

And thereby [via Lorenz] to chaos theory, etc.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: added hyperlink

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 01/10/2014 06:22:37

[JOHN KNIGHTParticipant @johnknight56112]

Tony,

I have a scruffy set of 5 figure log tables, been sitting on ny bookshelf since I left collegemany years ago. If they are of use to you, let me have your address.

Regards

John

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

I have a copy of the Cambridge logs that I had at school in the early 60s, and one I got a few months back that was my brother in law's, it's "Physical and Mathematical Tables" by Clark.

Ian S C

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Slide rules were far superior to calculators for finding a pair of standard value resistors to give a desired ratio. Of course now I would probably write a Python script to do the job on a computer – it would only take about 100 times as long!

Russell

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

I also have both slide rules and Castle's log tables, neither of which have been used for many a year. But, with a little effort, I CAN still use them and for all sorts of complex calculations involving indices, not that I've ever needed them. However, I would challenge anyone brought up in the calculator/computer age to use them in the event that electronic goodies were not available.

I don't know how true it is, but I've always understood that using the mechanical methods, although not as fast or as accurate as electronic methods, did at least give the user a feel for whether or not the answer was feasible or not. In support of this, I can relate two examples of where electronic devices have been proved to be incorrect due to possibly bad programming by the program writer(s).

The first was a calculation involving, from memory, as attempt to calculate the daily interest on a given sum given the annual rate. Using a particular make of calculator gave a wrong answer depending on the order of the calculation. It turned out that this machine ignored anything beyond the 16th (or maybe the 8th, it's a long time ago) decimal digit, whereas an equivalent Casio always gave the correct answer regardless of the order of calculation.

The second was a demonstration by a colleague who was into mapping underground caves and was using Microsoft Basic to perform the calculations. Again, memory is hazy, but I think he was using horizontal and vertical co-ordinates to determine a particular point, and then as a check, reversing the calculation. He did not end up back where he started. It turned out that he was using the standard single precision values. Double precision, I seem to think cured the problem. Interestingly, my Sinclair Spectrum did not display the same problem yet I seem to think it only used one byte more than Microsoft's single precision.

All that is newer, is not necessarily better.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

[Robert DoddsParticipant @robertdodds43397]

My personal archive has two little pocket books from the Henry Ford Trade School. One is a 6 figure log and Antilog book and the other is its matching Trig tables complete with diagrams for solving triangles, escribed and inscribed circles etc. These were given out as part of the training of apprentices at Radway Green in the 1950s, sadly no longer offered today.
I remember that the badge of office of all aspiring draffies was the Faber Castell 5" slide rule hidden in its little green pouch, usually in the breast pocket of a laundered overall. It was not particularly accurate, but with regular use good meaningful answers to problems could be quickly arrived at. A 10" version was kept in the drawer under the drawing board for more serious calculations!

Bob D

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I own a slide rule and know how to use it, and I'm a hopeless romantic for old-fashioned things like 8-bit computing

But I have had to accept a few things:

An autofocus camera takes sharper pictures than I can.
A digital tuner tunes an instrument better than my ear.
A cheap digital calliper or mike is as accurate as me with a vernier one.
I make fewer errors with a digital calculator than doing mental maths.
I can proof read better using a pdf than a paper copy.
The microwave burns less food than the oven

All is not lost though, I still have an analogue wife and prefer FM to DAB!

It is horses for courses, and I suspect that the applications you list could all be addressed better by a computer (even using a spreadsheet) with a little imagination – I often get a spreadsheet to generate graphs of various scenarios or to compare gear ratios to get the best for a particular purpose, for example.

The irony with Peter's story is that single-precision numbers give you better accuracy than a slide rule, six significant figures where working to four is optimistic with a standard slide rule.. so I would guess that your speleological friend would have been even further out if he had worked out his route back using a slide rule.

I've looked it up and Peter is right about Sinclair BASIC using 5-bytes (like my beloved BBC computers!) rather than the 4 of a normal single-precision 'float'.

Neil

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

I've been looking for my log tables but can not find them. I did find my old slide rule but the plastic scales fell off, damp. Can't find my pride and joy "good" slide rule. When electronic calculators came out the usual question was " what's the point of 6 decimal places when all you want to know is should we use 3" angle or 4" ?"

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