Is CNC cheating

[Nick HulmeParticipant @nickhulme30114]

The problem with attitudes to CNC is that those who don't use it cannot understand the time and effort which goes into learning all the skills one needs to "automatically" make parts, or the work required in CAM to generate tool paths which do exactly what you wish them to do.

I think that a manual machinist who is sniffy about CNC (as once I was) should learn CAD, CAM and CNC Operation to the point where they are competent enough to generate tool paths for complex parts and only then cast aspersions at those who have climbed this particular set of quite steep learning curves.

– Nick

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

One way to answer the question, ask a judge, there's probably one who looks in on the site.

Ian S C

[Rufus RoughcutParticipant @rufusroughcut]

Hi Gents

If CNC has to be considered against manual then surely the thickness of glasses and unsteadiness of the hands of the fabricator should also get greater consideration, lets also go the hole hog and assess based on the current financial means of the maker, how ludicrous, we should n,t penalise against a young engineer if all his equipment belongs to his grandpa, if we are to measure our own skill and abilities on the views of others then we are not model engineers, we are just people who can achieve the best copy of some other engineers work which makes us all fraudsters, there are those who feel we should still be warring with stones and forget the bronze/iron ages ever existed. I personally don't care what someone would judge my work as or my means of achieving the outcome, in reality how many have modified equipment, used a different material and or undertaken dangerous feats of the electro-mechanical occult provide ourselves a solution to a problem.

e.g. if the water tank is meant to brass and painted to conceal it then if you had sheets and sheets of stainless why then would you buy brass, just to conform the ideals of some judge who then could mark you down for not using the correct materials.

perhaps the judge can not tig weld and nor could the original designer and the original pattern was a bodge job of cheap materials laid about the shed I mean to say I personally don't know of any old locos which we aim to copy having had cast aluminium saddles or huge brass or gunmetal smoke boxes or such.

Rufus

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Why do we even have to have competitions ?
I feel it says more about the Herbert showing the model and not the model.

Are not we all judges in our own right ?

What about when you go to a show on a Friday or Saturday, before the results are known. Does this impact what you have seen. In my case it doesn’t and when I have been to 3 day shows the presentations are the last thing that interest me

Edit:

If I were to donate a cup or shield it would be awarded to something like tooling as that is my area of interest and it would be based on innovation.

Points awarded on uniqueness first, presentation second. Things like graduated scales, one spanner to fit all bolts , etc. Method of manufacture and finish NOT to be taken into account.
This is because any subsequent builders can handle that to their hearts content.

Edited By John Stevenson on 03/09/2016 13:52:53

Edited By John Stevenson on 03/09/2016 13:53:39

[NJHParticipant @njh]

" Why do we even have to have competitions ? "

Interesting question John but I guess that the need to compete against others is a strong desire amongst some folk and it is competition that drives them to produce their best work. In that respect it is a good thing as it enables us to see just what can be achieved by the best ( and I guess just how far we are [sorry I am !] away from the best). In my case I'm a long (long long!) way away from competition standard but it is motivational to see just what can be achieved. It is also interesting to note that often I may disagree with the judges choice – but, of course, my criteria may be quite different! Finally I agree that an "Innovation" award is a good idea……….Good Grief it seems that I'm in almost total agreement with you !!!

Norman

PS In terms of competitions I am in a constant state of competition with myself in trying to get out and produce work and produce it better than I have before! It will be very strictly marked by ME alone!

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Norman,

You have basically answered what I wrote. You don’t feel you are up to exhibition standard but you like to see what is.
So what is to stop say 3 identical models being put on display and letting the punters make up their mind with no judges involved ? It may cull some exhibits where the owner is on an ego trip, and they do exist but it might encourage more models if the builder knows he’s not going to get slapped down.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Well I've put a few of my models into the competition this year. I'm (genuinely) not expecting any medals, I consider myself to be a very 'ordinary' model engineer – perhaps a bit more willing to experiment or try things like making gears than some, but well behind most in the quality of finish stakes!

(a) I'm interested in an objective assessment of them – I won't be going home in a huff if they don't get anything and although it's nice to have things admired, it is a bit frustrating that no-one ever offers objective criticism!

(b) I want to encourage other people to show their work and it feels a bit hypocritical to tell others to enter and not put my own work up. Also I want to show that you don't need to make a gold-medal model for it to be worth sending a write-up to Diane!

(c) I don't think it's a competition against other people but against certain criteria. I know I will lose marks on finish but will hopefully pick up a few for using my own gears, designs and patterns.

Neil

[Bob StevensonParticipant @bobstevenson13909]

The "punters" is a key word in this matter…….

CNC "cheats" nobody out of anything….That's the good news! The problem is that in the eyes of the general public,…ie the "punters" any automation by computer completely nullifies any skills that may have been used.

….If ANY part of your project was CNC'd then you have given away any right to the respect of craftsmanship!….fact!

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Also worth mentioning that you don't have to enter the comp if you don't want to, items can be exhibited in the load section for the enjoyment of others. I have done this before at MEX and as I'm not a member at Guildford my models are just there for show as they don't qualify for the comp.

Yes Neil its a competion against critera hence more than one of any of the medels can be awarded in a single class not 1st, 2nd & 3rd.

I entered a few of mine this year in the loan section but was asked if I would mind moving them to the comp section so will be interesting to see what the judges think.

Edited By JasonB on 03/09/2016 16:43:54

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by JasonB on 03/09/2016 16:42:35:

I entered a few of mine this year in the loan section but was asked if I would mind moving them to the comp section so will be interesting to see what the judges think.

I'm worried mine will be moved to the loan section

Neil

[Michael CheckleyParticipant @michaelcheckley34085]

Hi Jason,

Will this mean that someone who submits an entry built to someone else`s design gets 0 marks for this section? and the person that designs everything from scratch gets the full 20?

This 20% would give a significant advantage in a competition and give someone without Rolls Royce quality machining skills a fighting chance at a trophy….

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

The 3 per cent of people who voted that CNC is cheating would have been Luddites in a previous age. In my one area of speciality – writing about the building of shotguns and rifles – we have seen Britain fade into insignificance on the world scene in every aspect except in the super-expensive "Purdey " class because of a pig-headed insistence that CNC was bad.

Back in the 1980s I visited a factory producing one of the last of Britain's "affordable" guns and was urged not to photograph a small CNC machining centre because "we only use it for roughing out gun actions and we don't want people to know about it." Their pride was a long line of blokes at benches,wielding files. When I noticed that the machine's tool magazine was covered by a cloth, I was told "that's because it's secret." I ask you! Needless to say, the firm is out of business.

Only a few weeks previously I had been round the Mandelli factory in Piacenza, Italy, who in the era were among world leaders in CNC. I only got in because my sister was their technical translator. When I asked why they were using robotic probes to ensure that workpieces were firmly clamped before machining began, when it would have been easy to walk up to the machine and check, the answer was, to me, a classic: "That's all very well, but what if you are using the machine from your office in Chicago, and the machine is in Taiwan?"

Why don't I use CNC for the modest amount of machining I do? Because, although the equipment is now affordable for amateur use, at 75 I am too ancient to learn a new skill. But I am full of admiration for those who have acquired it, and my admiration is even greater for those who develop new CNC techniques.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

 

Posted by Mike on 03/09/2016 17:24:40:

The 3 per cent of people who voted that CNC is cheating would have been Luddites in a previous age.

 

I think you're treading dangerous ground here.

The luddites were fighting a social cause, not a technological one. They were very good at it by the looks of it by how few of them were actually prosecuted. The local populace harbored them because they believed in their cause.

What it takes to be a gunsmith is way beyond any technical college training, you're scrutinized heavily on all aspects of handiwork.

I happen to be one of that percentile, if i can see beyond popular conception about Luddites i should hardly call that ignorant, so i'm a thug? dig your own ditch.

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 03/09/2016 17:58:04

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

The saddest thing about this thread, aside from the bickering, is that Neil's poll has only attracted 103 votes.

… Where are the other thousands [?] of readers ?

MichaelG.

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 03/09/2016 18:05:51:

The saddest thing about this thread, aside from the bickering, is that Neil's poll has only attracted 103 votes.

There is an obvious trend from those votes.

[AeronutParticipant @aeronut]

That's why I didn't vote, you could even start another vote. Is having an electric motor on your lathe cheating.

A final word, get over it and get on with it. Model engineering that is however you wish to approach it, it's a hobby.

Regards Lee

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Frightened to post for fear of ridicule by the people who only see their ways and methods

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by John Stevenson on 03/09/2016 18:19:55:
Frightened to post for fear of ridicule by the people who only see their ways and methods

I daresay you're hardly the shrinking violet, Mr Stevenson. If you truly believe it then say it. I don't see what on earth you could be scared of?

If i can, anyone can do it. 

Michael W

 

Edited By Michael Walters on 03/09/2016 18:29:05

[mark costello 1Participant @markcostello1]

Ya know, it takes skilled hands and a skilled mind to make an exceptional model, it also takes a skilled hands and skilled mind to do it with CNC. End of journey is the same just slightly different roundabouts to get there.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Bob Stevenson on 03/09/2016 16:31:44

….If ANY part of your project was CNC'd then you have given away any right to the respect of craftsmanship!….fact! in my opinion!

You got the last bit wrong so I changed it.

Martin.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Nicholas Wheeler 1 on 03/09/2016 18:17:29:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 03/09/2016 18:05:51:

The saddest thing about this thread, aside from the bickering, is that Neil's poll has only attracted 103 votes.

There is an obvious trend from those votes.

.

… But that is "amongst those that can be bothered to vote"

Will we ever know what [or indeed, if] the silent majority thinks

MichaelG.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 03/09/2016 19:37:15:

Posted by Nicholas Wheeler 1 on 03/09/2016 18:17:29:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 03/09/2016 18:05:51:

The saddest thing about this thread, aside from the bickering, is that Neil's poll has only attracted 103 votes.

 

There is an obvious trend from those votes.

.

… But that is "amongst those that can be bothered to vote"

Will we ever know what [or indeed, if] the silent majority thinks

MichaelG.

Failed joke…  Sorry

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 03/09/2016 19:58:35

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

If it weren't for the sake of free speech i'd say let's put this thread out of it's misery before WW3 breaks loose. Clearly we've struck a chord here which is just too much fuss to argue over.

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 03/09/2016 20:05:03

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Michael Checkley on 03/09/2016 17:06:56:

Hi Jason,

Will this mean that someone who submits an entry built to someone else`s design gets 0 marks for this section? and the person that designs everything from scratch gets the full 20?

No. If someone designs a simple oscillating engine from scratch they are unlikely to get the same amount of marks as the person who has researched and measured say a full size loco and then built that. Or in the tool section a design for a stepperhead lathe would score more than say a simple machine vice. Though in both cases the own design would score better in that section than a similar item from a published design.

Also worth bearing in mind that Gold, silver or bronze may not be awarded, so even if you were to have the best model/tool amoung those entered at that years exhibition if it did not get the marks it would not get gold.

J

Edited By JasonB on 03/09/2016 20:09:39

[Nick HulmeParticipant @nickhulme30114]

Posted by Bob Stevenson on 03/09/2016 16:31:44:

The "punters" is a key word in this matter…….

CNC "cheats" nobody out of anything….That's the good news! The problem is that in the eyes of the general public,…ie the "punters" any automation by computer completely nullifies any skills that may have been used.

….If ANY part of your project was CNC'd then you have given away any right to the respect of craftsmanship!….fact!

ROFLMAO!

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